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Perhaps someday I will write about this, but not now. None of what I am relating has to do with religion, rather more about Anthropology perhaps? Apparently this work is housed at the British Museum of History.
I've been reading and viewing historical YouTube Videos on the inhabitants of Ur (Southern Iraq). You might actually call this prehistory. The authors posit that this history picks up about 275,000 years ago. This is so fascinating to me. It is doubtful that I would write about gender identity, other than briefly, but in recent history, in the marshes of Southern Iraq, Boys who felt they were girls lived that way, and Girls who felt they were boys lived that way. No surgery, or hormones. I think they are called the Mandeans?
Sorry for the diversion. According to the Authors, 275,000 years ago, when this story picks up, The Tigris and Euphrates started in the mountains of Eastern Turkey. Another river is thought to have come from somewhere in modern day Iran, and a fourth river, perhaps originating around Tabuk and passing Hail before emptying into Southern Iraq. This would place the terminus of all four rivers perhaps around the area of the theorized Garden of Eden. The authors assert that the river that resulted once ran clear past the Gulf of Hormuz and emptied into the Gulf of Oman. At the time, during an ice age, the water level in the area was much lower there, perhaps by hundreds of feet. Silt from Eastern Turkey had washed down as the ice ages ended, filling the Persian Gulf such that the shore is now near Abadan.
The fictional story of all this would be so fascinating to write, but presently, I lack the courage to attempt it.
Comments
Transgender in Ur
Personally, I'm skeptical about any claims about 275,000 years ago. Keep in mind, YouTube doesn't review videos for their veracity.
However, it is known that there was some gender-crossing in Ur of around 2300 BC. Look up the Sumerian goddess Inanna for descriptions of cross-gender aspects of her worship. FWIW, the poems that her priestess -- Eheduanna -- wrote are the earliest writings that have an author's name attached.
Transgender Long Term
My extremely conservative Christian background established my prejudices, and it has been difficult to live down. The most important activity in my life, to me, has been to determine the relationship between any possible Anthropology and Religion, and understand how the latter has run amok so tragically. I don't have issue with the possibility of some superbeing helping Homo Sapiens become more human. Perhaps Cuneiform writing documents that somewhat? It is all theory, perhaps elegant fiction? I write Science Fiction, where is the problem?
As a child, my first readings of the Book of Genesis left me with an uncomfortable feeling that someone had Man as their project and that the project was fruitless.
I would love to write about that but couch it in such a way that there might eventually be a good outcome.
Might I Remind You.
I did state that I had done reading also, and the video from the Museum supported my reading with some minor disagreement. Any written History or "Prehistory" is to some extent the speculation of the authors. Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
I did find it fascinating that in that Prehistory, the author related about a first King that ruled for 36,000 years, and the one following ruled for 28,000 years. I am unsure if those numbers came from the Cuneiform, or some early Religious interpretation? Sadly, in modern times too many kings have abused their power. I've heard Jewish scholars talk about Judaism's development and their words were very interesting.
It is all very interesting, but not to be presented as fact.
Surviving Religions of the Middle East
Hi Gwen,
Maybe from some of my stories you can see that I have some experience of that part of the world, and in particular Western Iran which was the refuge for may ancient sects and religions. I say that they were because before the Islamic Revolution in Iran the Shah was tolerant of many faiths - Judaism was very strong in Tehran. But the west of the country is rich in religious history.
The Mandeans that you describe are a very old religion and first practiced baptism - John the Baptist is a prophet, but not Jesus. The priests are called rabbis.
The Yazidis are ethnic Kurds so cross the border into three nations, and have their own special faith.
Then there are the oldest Christian churches such as the Nestorians and the Chaldean Catholic Church.
I also met some outliers of America's attempt to convert the Iranians - It is a crazy story. Google the names of the key players: Justin Perkins, William Ambrose Shedd, Fidelia Fiske.
Then, the oldest of them all, the Zoroastrians, also called the Parsees, worshiping Mithra. Takht-e-Soleyman is worth looking at.
In ancient Rome there was the battle of the monotheistic religions between Mithraism and Christianity and Christians won. If they had not we would be praying to Mithra as the father in heaven.
That is religion for you.
Maryanne
That is priceless !!!
I was Muslim for 9 years, mostly Sunni but Shia for about 2 of those years. Trans folk are supposedly OK over there, but I did not put it to the test. In my own ignorance I thought that Judaism was first, then Christianity, then later Islam. I thought that Zoroastrianism came before Judaism. Then reading about Ur and the Sumerian people, I happened upon a YouTube video, entitled "UR" that exhaustively explored Southern Iraq and theorized back as far as 275,000 years. When I was growing up, we did not know about any of this. What I am relating now is new to me. In the unlikely event that I live until 2050, perhaps we'll know a lot more.
My own theory is that it is all much older than that. Not that long ago, I was condemned to hell because I don't believe in the Trinity. I think that modern American Christianity is a self serving bunch of fools and that Jesus had not intended to start something new.
Thank you
Gwen
Christianity in the USA
is a business. $$$$ rule.
Just turn on the TV on a Sunday and you will be told to send all your money and you will be forgiven (or other stuff like that).
Having experienced a fire breathing baptist preacher (in South Wales) as a youngster I can tell you that in their eyes, I have sinned so many times that I am doomed for a life in Hell and am clearly beyond hope.
That preacher didn't want money only our souls.
TV preachers and many more are only interested in the weekly takings and if it is large enough to support their way of life.
Even those who are supposed to live a life of abstention seem to be able to life a different life to those who pray forgiveness at their feet.
The words of that fire breathing preacher caused me to turn my back on all religion. See! I'm doomed to a life in the fires of hell.
Samantha
Looking For A Class in Sumerian
My own opinion tends to follow yours. These days I am preoccupied with the Originator.
:)
Gwen
Consider "The First Religion" as a title, or, maybe,
"The First Religion, Hypothesis 1". As a hypothesis, you get to make up events to support the hypothesis. Questions that might be addressed could be
1. What was the nature of "society" at the time?
2. What needs were filled?
3. How did that first religion get started?
4. Was that religion started by the established leaders or the wanabe leaders?
5. What environmental factors motivated the start?
.
.
.
Remember, you are writing fiction, but it might have been fact. :)
Your study of history and what folks thought was the history should provide plenty more ideas.
Remember, too, that you don't have to believe that the hypothesis is true... just that it is possible. What if?
The ultimate truth is, I believe, that religion is based on opinion, usually shared among some group. Your opinion is as good as anyone else's, unless it moves you to try to harm them including beating their opinions down ... and vice-versa!
All that said, have fun telling a story. :)
Hugs,
Sara
Sara
Between the wrinkles, the orthopedic shoes, and nine decades of gravity, it is really hard to be alluring. My icon, you ask? It is the last picture I allowed to escape the camera ... back before most BC authors were born.
A.G. Riddle's books
He has a series of books out that were fun to read. I think the Atlantis Gene deals with Aliens that were altering the Genes of life on earth around 70,000 years ago. It was a fun read. There are two additional books in that series to form a Trilogy.
Gwen
That could be very
That could be very interesting. When and if you do attempt it, I look forward to reading it.
Hugs!
Rosemary
Too Distant To Study?
I've seen so much debate about Middle Eastern history, I had thought to go to Universities and Museums to further my knowledge. I am very disappointed to report that there seem to be only about a Half Dozen Museums that have books and exhibits on the subject. Three are in England, one in Spain, one in Italy, one in Greece and one in Egypt. I'm ancient myself, and reside in the Northwest of America. Surely there are published books at Universities, and Book Stores in my area? I'm no academic and spent my life in the Trades. Coronavirus dramatically complicates the issue.
Early Middle-Eastern History and Religion
I too have found it an interesting thing to read and study. Sumer is noted to be the cradle of civilization, though some archeological findings are proposing that it maybe possible that groups of prehistorical hunter-gatherers may have banded together before then. So I will at least say until something new is discovered, Sumer was possibly is the first known civilization. The Sumerians had gods called the Anunnaki and supposedly it is stated in their cuneiform tablets they came from the sky, created man to be their slaves or at least something along that lines. (I won't get into the discussion proposed by ancient alien theorists this was the first recorded contact with extraterrestrials.) They too placed their creation into the region what is now known as the Persian Gulf. Just as you pointed out Gwen where the Garden of Eden may lie. A few other stories you find in the old testament were also recorded by the Sumerians. From the Sumerians you get the Babylonians, Assyrians and others along with their pantheons. As Maryanne pointed out you get Zoroastrianism developing around the second millennium BCE in this region as well. I will go out on a limb and propose that the Hebrews are a people that came from that region as well. I differentiate between Hebrews and Judaism for a moment. The religion of the Hebrews is one the oldest known form of monotheistic belief with the followers of Abraham believing in one god. His son Ishmael is said to be the founder of the Arabic peoples and from whence Islam developed. His second son Isaac is from where Judaism developed. Judaism is said come about when Moses received the commandments from Jehovah. Of course from Judaism we get Christianity which if I understand correctly was considered a branch of Judaism until Paul started to preach to non-gentiles, then the Romans got a hold of it and made it a religion as Maryanne pointed out. It was pointed out to me not long ago that being transgendered never really appears in written form in any early form of religion. In Deuteronomy we do get that verse about Men not dressing as women nor Women dress as men, though the actual verse depends on interpretation. My friend a former theological student said to me that he was taught that the reason this law was included was to avoid being mistaken for a follower of Astarte whose priests supposedly dressed as women. Well I have rambled on long enough, just wanted to throw my two cents into this discussion.
Soooo Interesting
Thank you Fiona, for bringing it on back to TG, as that is our community.
And yes, our goddess must be Ishstar or Astarte as you call her.
The book by Graves "The White Goddess" goes to the heart of this. We want to be women because women are the root of all life. Men have taken religion and masculinized it. To gain power over women they have killed the white goddess and made God male. This paternalistic approach is the source of men's power over women.
Priests of Ishtar dressed as women and often castrated themselves to become closer to the perfection of God - women. Men are but a hairy off-shoot of humanity designed to lift heavy loads and kill one another.
Well, that is the notion. It is any stranger that the notion that a man should die to expiate the sins of others?
And on the subject of Christ I have referred to his recognition of the worship of Ishtar in my story "Faith" referencing Matthew 19:12.
One final point is about the development of Islam: In its origin it was designed as an amalgam of Judaism and Christianity, with Mohammed the final prophet after Abraham and Jesus (in the Koran Esau son of Miriam), but it was hijacked for military purposes.
Interesting (?)
Maryanne
I largely agree with you.
There is an interesting passage in Isaiah 56:4-5 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Then of course there is Matt 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others--and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
I personally think there is room in those passages to accommodate Transgenderism. Those blowhards who have issue with it simply need to improve their scholarship.
AND, as I mentioned before there was expression of it in Southern Iraq. Those folk were run out of Iraq by Saddam. Lots of them went to Iran. Others went to India and several other countries.
My own entry into the TG realm was involuntary but over the years, and lacking a choice I've acquiesced to it.
My opinion is that the Jews came first, and came from the Zoroastrians, and the followers of Abraham, who was born in Ur. I've heard several arguments about when Abraham was born. After that came Christianity, but lately I believe that Jesus did not intend to start a separate belief. I agree that Paul stole it. Around AD 650 Islam started, but right after the death of Muhammad PBUH it too ran amok. One of the frequent statements that I have heard from Iranians is that the Sunni never did conquer them. Interestingly, TG folk are largely accepted in Iran. I would not go there because I was once in the American Military, so I don't want to wind up in Evan Prison.
This is a very interesting discussion.
Eunuchs
Eunuch while primarily associated with men that have been castrated, has a broader definition in the bible. In the bible a Eunuch can also be defined as someone of importance, such as an advisor, or it can mean someone that is impotent. Though there are verses in which it means one who is or possibly become castrated especially in the old testament. IMHO The biggest problem in quoting scripture is no matter what version of the bible you use it is all based on translation, The KJV was translated from the Latin version and written for the common man, the Latin version was translated from Greek, the Greek versions from Aramaic or Hebrew. So the intention of the original verse may have been lost. So we tend to rely on interpretation of these verses, either by clergy, theologians etc. I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a possible broader scope to those verses. I do agree with you that Jesus was not forming a different belief, but trying to correct what he saw as the faith had been corrupted. Something for you to look into is Messianic Judaism it came about in the 60's it basically accepts Jesus as the messiah and combines Christianity with Judaism and Jewish tradition.
The Second Coming of Esau
Hi Gwen,
Having been a Muslim you are probably aware that Jesus plays a big role in the Quran.
Christians may be surprised to learn that Islam speaks of his second coming and Jesus (Esau son of Miriam) playing a role in uniting all "the people of the Book" under his rule. This was Muhammad's intention - to unify the western religions
Maryanne
Thank you so much.
And now I have read about an idea that is new to me. The Author felt that Jesus did not intend to start Christianity. In the New Testament, Peter calls him Rabbi. He felt that Paul hijacked the whole thing. Apparently he was seen as arrogant and murderously so. Though an Angel tells Mary that Jesus will be referred to as Son of God, I have read things that say the idea was not popular until the third Century.
As you say, the Qur'an has a whole chapter devoted to Jesus, (Isa PBUH). It is interesting that when Allah SWT asks Isa why he came back to Earth, he replied that it was to do the will of Allah SWT and nothing else. It's been years now but to the Shia Muslims, he has a helper called the Mahdi. There are so many different interpretations that I get very confused. Around 2006, I was told by very conservative Sunnis that if I said He was the Son of Allah SWT, my head was to be cut off. It is interesting that a faith that advances the idea that if a man kills someone, then it is as if he had killed the whole world, yet they can kill me?
A major part of my life is devoted to the study of these ideas, but I get so confused.
Gwen
Too Distant To Study?
I've seen so much debate about Middle Eastern history, I had thought to go to Universities and Museums to further my knowledge. I am very disappointed to report that there seem to be only about a Half Dozen Museums that have books and exhibits on the subject. Three are in England, one in Spain, one in Italy, one in Greece and one in Egypt. I'm ancient myself, and reside in the Northwest of America. Surely there are published books at Universities, and Book Stores in my area? I'm no academic and spent my life in the Trades. Coronavirus dramatically complicates the issue.