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Please don't take this the wrong way. I am seriously interested in the subject and would like some insight form those members who read this.
A background first. I am a bi male who enjoys the hell out of sex with men yet loves the hell out of sex with women. Given a choice between the two, it would depend on which I'd had the most recent satisfying sex with as to which I would desire more at the moment. I'd probably like to share both more than have to pick one and only one.
Where my question comes in is with TG's, expecially M2F's. If a male is truly female in his mind and strongly desires to be female in body, why is it that such a preponderance of them choose lesbian partners? Why wouldn't the female brain prefer a male partner? I mean, if the female brain they have is truly female wouldn't it stand to reason that the prevalent desire would be for a male sexual partner? What is it that leads so many the other way? Was it the bullying turning them from men? The rejection of the male's in their lives that created it's own reverse rejection? Or are they associating the wonderful feelings to someone who was there for them through thick and thin?
In my case, I eventually found a woman who accepted my bisexuality and embraced it. She would buy me panties, stockings, nightgowns, etc and engage in role reversal games with me. We even shared a couple of my lovers. She wasn't bi herself but was willing and able to incorporate my sexuality into our sex life without rancor or jealousy. I never would have left her for another man and she knew it. I leaned too far to the heterosexual side to be able to live a strictly homosexual lifestyle. But, then, my mind is predominantly male, not female.
Again, this is not meant to put down any TG lifestyle choices. We each have our own lives to live and I do not begrudge anyone their preferences. It's simply asked for my own edification. Is this really as prominent as it seems? If so, why? If not, why do I tend to see it so much? Is it just prominent here in BCTS?
Enquiring minds want to know. At least, mine does.
Thank you,
Erica
Complicated
But simple, really. Gender and sexuality are separate. Who you want to be with is a different question from one about who you are. Speaking from personal experience and knowledge, most of my trans friends are straight. That means they go for men. There are some who come to transition when married, and that is quite common, because they have gone through the very common process of denial and male reinforcement. Men get married, men father children. Many of those who arrive there have found an accommodation in their life where they need somebody to love, and gay men by definition are not what they desire, so they stick with what they think they can achieve, and when they transition they are still in love. They are married to somneone who they made a life with, who supported them in transition; why should they need to change? That is one of the reasons that may explain the slightly higher incidence of lesbianism amongst transwomen than in genetic women. Of course, there may be a response to experiences of male abuse. I have a particular transman friend, who has not gone through phalloplasty, but is happy with his wife, who has realised that her 'lesbian' lover is actually male, and adapted with it. Another, a transwoman, has stayed with their wife: to quote her, "She didn't realise she was marrying a lesbian". Those are the flipside of the story: people can adapt. When you find the one you click with, you hang onto them. That is what I am trying to explore in one of my current stories.
Crossdressers, on the other hand, are a heterogenous group. Some are fetishists, pure and simple. Many of them are gay, or bi, and for them it is quite often about the sex. Most are hetero, and that tends to be about feeling comfortable. Someone like Bev can explain it better, but there are people who fit in no neat square box of assumptions. What I will say is that there is a world of difference between looking at clothes and thinking 'That's pretty' or 'that would do for that meeting next week and go with the XYZ I got...', and 'That makes me want to...'
Most transwomen I know do not want to think of themselves, do NOT think of themselves, as anything other than women, perhaps with a bit of history. They look at other women, or men, and fancy them in the same way as any other woman. And here's the crux of things: I for one do not see sex as central to my life. Love, affection, a back rub, someone to share with, that is what floats my boat.
I agree...simple, really....
Love, Andrea Lena
No hard data -- um, or should I rephrase that?
I am not aware of any hard statistics on sexual preferences of MtF trans folk. My anecdotal evidence indicates that the actual distribution is 30/30/30/10, S/L/B/?. That is for all age groups. I think that Ts at younger ages tend to be more straight and older Ts tend to be more Lesbian or Bi. Oh, and the question mark? That group is usually so taken up with dealing with being trans that they haven't gotten around to thinking about sexuality yet.
There are no links between gender and sexual preference, though both are thought to be affected by hormonal 'washes' during gestation.
There is also the question of how a female brain reacts to years of testosterone 'poisoning' (and vice versa).
Your comment also raised a question, that of any connection between being bi-sexual (comfortable with and engaging in sexual relationships with either gender) and being a cross-dresser/transvestite. As far as I know, there is no link there, either.
It does raise additional interesting questions of what roles a bi-sexual will take with various partners. My guess is that it would relate to the dominant/submissive relationship between the partners.
I suppose that at the end of the day, it all depends on what floats your individual boat.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Shake the nest a bit more...
You just hit a humongous beehive of controversy.
Since you said your mind is male grab a piece of paper do the following please.
One draw a human body as best you can.
Put a dot in the head with line leading out marked brain.
Put a dot in the abdomen with a line leading out marked emotion.
Put a circle inbetween legs with a line leading out marked sex drive.
Put a line from rest of body to word body.
These four areas are the ones that throw everyone into major confusion.
They can be either male, female or neutral. Neutral refers to actually not being either at all.
If the brain is female the body is female the sex drive is female and the emotion is female guess what you have a natural born girl. Same goes for boys.
The problem is its not always that way. none of these areas are actually changable. Cosmetic changes can be made but the underlying points will always be there.
Brain well you should I hope know what that is. It controls how we think about things.
Emotion is how we feel about things. And yes there really is neural tissue in a person abdomen its why we feel good when we eat.
Sex drive this refers to what our bodies see as the opposite sex.
Body again this should be obvious but isn't.
There are tons of women with male bodies.. they have female sexual charistics but the body tissue is designed male, ie massive muscle tissue and heavy bones.
Boys can also have female bodies, small bones. delicate skin, lack of physical strenght.
There is also the neutrals. These are individuals who may or may not have, during fetal development, actually had a twin that died and was absorbed into the fetus. Obvious ones are siamese twins. Others not so obvious are Intersexed people who have two complete working reproductive systems.
FOr your purpose you asked why tg individuals go through srs and then take a female partner. Simple really their sex drive is male but rest was female.
THe problem you cannot understand is probably because as a crossdresser your system is probably male brain male or neutral body, neutral sex drive, female emotions.
One thing about neutral is that it can in limited situations change to one side and stay there. usually at the ages of 12 and 30.
Hope that gives you some visual to make sense of this its really more complicated that what i just wrote but it does make it somewhat easier to understand.
You can play with this picture changing the sex from m - f - n in various combinations and you will see definate patterns emerge.
Have fun
OR! It could be...
I agree with what others have already stated.
One other possibility came to my pea-brain, though. Some people might revere 'the feminine' and femininity enough to want to BE female and desire to be WITH a female too.
with love,
Hope
with love,
Hope
Once in a while I bare my soul, more often my soles bear me.
Serious Question
Wonder why MOST stories seem to have a M2F falling for a woman?
May Your Light Forever Shine
Many of us here...
...are attracted to women more than or rather than men, so our tendency is to write what we know and/or wish to see take place in our own lives. I write primarily from a female-to-female perspective, but I do include other perspectives, since that's really how life works in this community. We have authors and readers here who are MtF who are attracted primarily to men as well. And of course we have some recent arrivals here (who are no strangers to the writing community at large) who write from a FtM perspective as well. It's really about the self-awareness of the author; what he or she feels about himself is bound to come out in what they write.
Love, Andrea Lena
Gender and sexuality are
Gender and sexuality are separate. That's pretty much all it comes down to. There are some transwomen here who like men, some who like men and women, and some who like women. I can't honestly tell you the percentages, I think the last study I read put it at 60-40 split (heterosexual vs. homosexual respectively), but of course that doesn't take into account bisexuals. Also not being able to cite it, I wouldn't trust it.
I'm sure there are women here who reject males, assuming they're bi, because of said abuse. However, I'm equally sure there are women here who reject the notion of lesbianism because they feel it would make them less of a woman. It's, of course, utter nonsense to think that way but trans people struggle to fit in and anything that makes them different can be seen as an obstacle to transition.
Why is it some choose to be lesbian? Unless you're bi (which not everyone is) you don't get to choose. Lesbian women are not less women. Lesbian trans women are no less women either.
In answer to your second question: Do you actually see so many lesbian trans stories? I honestly do not. The majority of stories I've read are heterosexual. If there are some that I've missed I'm sure it comes to down to the fact that this is a trans website and trans people are part of the LGBT. Perhaps it just makes sense to some writers, who might otherwise identify as heterosexual, to include homosexual characters. I'm sure, equally, that some writers are homosexual as well and wish to fashion their characters that way.
Perhaps the only way to find your answer is to get a poll going. In the end though, it really doesn't matter.
You are miss informed.
The numbers I have heard are that about 27% of MtF folk prefer women. Another little known factoid is that Post ops often eschew intercourse with partners. Some people have these lurid ideas about us that really are the product of their own wicked minds.
At a young appearing 65, I doubt that I will ever have another sex partner, and I most certainly do not intend to give milk to any man with out a marriage contract. Women are great friends and companions, but for intercourse men have the horn do they not? And, yes a good looking and attentive man can make my brain to silly and fun things.
Gwendolyn
second paragraph -- Ewww!
Sorry, Hon, but this is where the preferences really take hold. It's wonderful that guys float your boat.
I'll agree that some are pretty cute and they have their uses shifting heavy stuff, but... Ick!
Guys just don't do it for some of us.
Yeah, romantic scenes with guys are a turn on, but as a fantasy. Not even interested in trying the real thing, not at all.
Now, in my case, my spouse, Denise, is really pretty manly. Notice I didn't say butch. She isn't butch. Short, cute, big boobs... But her male traits are really evident. It's amazing to me how many times she is called 'sir' in public.
But I think that's what this thread is all about, that we all have our own tastes and it's wonderful that we have an open, friendly forum to talk about them.
So, go have fun. =) We all deserve it.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Sex, Gender and "Sexual Orientation"
Right off, I agree with Celynn and Gwen. I heard or read an estimate, not a statistic, that 1/3 of post-op Tgals were het (androphylic), 1/3 were lesbian or bi and 1/3 didn't want or didn't do sex.
Per Tels list: >> Sex drive this refers to what our bodies see as the opposite sex. <<
I disagree. I think sex drive is our bodies reaction to our preferred sex partner.
I think most adults are aware of their bodies and generally which sex their body resembles. Homosexuals are not just rationally and emotionally attracted to their same sex, but their bodies attract each other. I think they like their bodies (maybe they would want to be thinner, taller, shorter, more buff, less muscley, etc.) and like their partners bodies the same way. There is some butch-fem attraction for some, where the differences in the partners bodies are attractive, to these types, but they are still same sex attracted.
Not all lesbians will continue to be attracted to a previously female partner who transitions F2M, even if the transman's genitals don't change and he doesn't become covered with much male hair and muscle; (like for genetic reasons, such as all the males in his family have light body hair (like my family) or he has little interest in pumping iron.) The transman appears and acts more male and the lesbian (if she isn't significantly bi) is only attracted to wimyn. Fem genitals on a transman are not enough to make her attracted.
Taking estrogen and a T blocker seemed to cause my attraction for men; I was not aware of any attraction to males pre-transition. OTOH, I was afraid of male aggression and sick of male personalities and group behavior from being forced into those male groups. Before I realized I was a womyn (escaped my denial), I had male friends, but they were always the most laid back, non aggressive guys around and were generally nerds, too.
I thought sex with skilled men was great, but when they weren't courting me, being nice, polite, etc. they showed their male personalities. I didn't get into any relationships with laid back, intelligent nerds, who would probably have made the best male partner for me.
I still had my attraction for wimyn, so I'm bi. I found living/behaving as a somewhat butch but non-aggressive lesbian felt better and more correct for me and a better fit with my lifetime nonconformity.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
i agree with a lot there
There was a British TV documentary that followed several people in transition, and the most difficult was that of a 'lesbian' couple. I have mentioned this before, but as they moved more and more towards full transition, it became clear that only one was actually trans. The other was just a woman who liked 'butch' women, a lesbian. Her partner was a straight transman. They split up shortly after he had a mastectomy.
People have mentioned that most of the stories here are about straight women (m2f). That is true in my case, but in my stories (counts rapidly)I have at least four GG lesbian couples, one TS lesbian, one TS lesbian with straight GG partner, one bi man with GG wife, three gay male couples, at least eight TS straight women with male partners, and one very odd forced-femme man who remains straight and married to a GG. All set in a sea of straight couples. I really can't think of much more to cover!
Now, pre-transition, I had a lot of problems with men. I spent a great deal of time talking with a girl friend and colleague, and as I said to her I simply did not understand their thought processes. Particularly the willy-waving aspects: look upon my works, ye lesser beings! I mean, I never wanted my own, so why should I want to compete in penis size with them? I think that was the day she realised, as she explained it, that I really wasn't a man.
for me, I struggled with this aspect
I wondered if my attraction to women made me male and even asked for the experiences of genetic lesbians to see how my attraction differed if it did at all. But I'm more at peace with myself as a lesbian transwoman, although mostly I want just someone to cuddle with, to give and receive back rubs and warm hugs with, to laugh and share my life with, even if we didnt share a bed.
I think you're missing
I think you're missing something here:
If this rationale were accurate there would be no lesbians. A female mind does not automatically mean an attraction to men. That's the most common outcome, but certainly not the only one. Also, my experience suggests that a majority of M2F women are attracted to men.
And then there's this:
Whether one is straight, bi, or gay is not a choice. In a very small number of cases someone may 'choose' a different orientation based on abuse/rape/etc., but this is rare and probably mostly happens to people who leaned more towards bi to begin with (whether they realized it or not).
As for the prominence of lesbian stories here, that depends on what stories you read. But, in my experience, the stories here are mostly straight. I'm always excited to find a new, well written, lesbian story because they are so much fewer than the straight ones and I can identify with them so much better.
I think that there are more lesbian transwomen than lesbian cisgender women (as a percentage), but the trend is still more towards being straight. I suspect, as someone else pointed out, that all that testosterone we're subjected to may have something to do with it, and/or societal pressures when we're still seen as male.
Hope that helps,
Saless
"But it is also tradition that times *must* and always do change, my friend." - Eddie Murphy, Coming To America