It Depends

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In response to the discussion under “The March to Mediocrity.” As John in Wauwatosa said, “There is a fine line between honest commentary and pressure to conform.” Like John, I’m not exactly sure where that fine line is. My guess it comes down to who the author is. Slothrop suggested, “Sounds more like a question of the courage of authors rather than a problem with the cleverness of the commenters.” Again, I would agree, but I think it might beg a bit more understanding of the authors.

Many of the Top Shelf authors are transgendered. Not all, but many.

The Harry Benjamin Standards of Care of Gender Identity Disorder suggests the likelihood of a higher prevalence for transgendered of anxiety, depression, conduct disorder, substance abuse, dissociative identity disorders, and borderline personality disorder. The Standards quickly discloses no systematic study supports this, but it has been my personal observation over the last many years of association with others in our community online that a high percentage are taking some form of medication for one of the above.

In the past, I’ve used the term “wounded doves” to describe many of the authors; and I think that is accurate. We all have our personal problems. For some of us those personal problems make coping or just getting through the day a chore.

To treat the average TG author as one would the average author seems to ignore the probable fragile state of that individual.

I realize that not everyone thinks Harry Benjamin and his followers are on track, or even working for the right railroad, but would it be so bad to error on the side of compassion?

Most of the problems on Top Shelf have to do with people getting their feelings hurt or Erin protecting people from getting their feelings hurt. Doesn’t that suggest we are truly people with understandably thin skin?

Personally, the guilt and shame I feel on a daily basis for the difference between who I am -- and who I must be results in a hair-trigger. Am I so much different than the average author here?

Please — restrict your comments on stories to positive remarks. If you want to make a point that will advance the community as a whole, there’s a writer’s forum for that kind of thing. If you want to help a writer advance their individual stories or make a particular story more enjoyable for the reader by correcting errors, do so in a PM.

If you were at a non-TG dinner party and a male friend of yours leaned over and displayed his panties would you announce to the entire room, “Harry your panties are showing.” Or, would you take him aside and gently warn him about what you'd seen?

I know what I would do and what I hope you would do if I were Harry, which thank God I’m not. Big is bad enough without being hairy.

Jill M I (Angela Rasch)

The Wound That Won't Heal

You are right to say that those of us that are transgendered have been hurt so badly that our wounds are ready to break open with the slightest touch. When we were kids the boys didn't want to play with us because we were "sissies" and the girls didn't because we were boys. We didn't fit because we were round pegs in square holes. And we became alone. As a result we not only hurt, but also didn't learn the social games properly because we were out of the loop.

The worse part of our pain is that although we crave love, affection and companionship we lash out at those we were close to because of our pain making us even lonelier. It is a vicious circle. No wonder that transgender groups are so fractured.

In adddition we can't discuss how we feel about being the "wrong" sex because of fear of someone finding out. Since I've been on the pill I have more confidence in myself that I've lost most of my fear. Yet, I also know some of us that are so afraid they are not even in the closet.

I know from where I speak. During the 2006 TDoR event here on LI, NY I was the "first" trans voice in that segment. What I said was virtually repeated by the other tanssexuals who spoke. When I posted my three essays, "Based on a Conversation" many of the reviews said I spoke for them. One even said that she wished she had one of my essays when she came out to her family.

Only by sharing and caring for each other can we begin to break down the barriers that we had to erect to keep what little sanity we had when we were alone. Then and only then will we be close to being whole. It will give us the strength to endure and maybe finally blossom.

hugs

Shelly aka shalimar

Now I feel guilty

I'm well-adjusted, reasonably happy and I guess don't know how good I've had it.

And yet, sometimes in the middle of the night when I think of things I never got to do, never got to be ... it still hurts. And it never goes away completely.

But it can get better! Hang in there. :smile:

-- Donna Lamb, Flack

-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack

Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna

Of course it depends

kristina l s's picture

It always depends. There are no absolutes and few definites. Many here that write and or comment will indeed have tender spots of varying sorts and sizes. SO consideration and thoughtfulness should indeed rule. But..does that mean that all comments need be positive? That does to some degree defeat the purpose. It is possible no matter how gentle the couching of a 'negative' comment it will cause hurt, even a comment thought to be positive may be misunderstood or misread.... Personally I think that a considered gentle...'well, maybe...but'...is best done in public. Discussion is all part of it. Pointed nitpicks, attacks and deliberate putdowns are another thing entirely. Where that line is drawn is sometimes 'grey' but will be jumped on pretty quickly in most cases. A wide group of people will never always agree..nor should they. But get along and discuss..not argue..sure.
Thin skinned...who me...well there is that little spot there...and that spots almost healed but still tender...and... nah...Tuff as an' ol' boot...hack spit. Go on then...I can take it.... just be gentle huh.
Kristina

Thank You For Making My Point

You said, "Where that line is drawn is sometimes 'grey' but will be jumped on pretty quickly in most cases." That is exactly what happens. People get jumped on, which starts a vicious circle in which people choose up sides and throw mud. It often ends with an author stomping out the door. Some come back. Others don't.

Comments are printed in black and white -- and that is how they are often interpreted. If someone post a public comment that says "your" should have been "you're" in your story, the sensitive author might well read that as "I spent well over two hundred hours writing that story and that's all you can say? If that's what the world thinks of my writing, why bother?"

To suggest that a comment is only one person out of the hundreds who read the story, therefore that comment can easily be ignored -- goes against everything I've learned in four decades of business.

A primary rule of business is to treat a compalint as a ligitimate sampling of your customers until proven otherwise.

Psychologists for a few years recommended that we use negative "sandwiches" in which we wrap each negative remark with a positive remark before and after it. Studies now have debunked that myth. Those studies have proven the only remark the person will remember and act upon is the negative one. There simply is no way to "couch" a public criticism so that it doesn't have the potential to hurt.

Rule of thumb -- "A thousand attaboys are wiped out by one awwwwshit."

You might well be "tuff as an ol' boot" -- but what happens when one of your reader admirers, or one of your online friends takes exception to something said in a comment to one of your stories? I've gone to the defense of stories, whether I've known the author or not when comments went too far. By doing so I've touched off flame wars.

Thank you fro reading my post and commenting. It appears most who come here don't care.

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

What is written...

kristina l s's picture

...'jumped on pretty quickly'... not quite what I meant, but yes it does of course work that way too. The old what is read is not always what is written and vice a versa. That is where the deep breath and look before you leap or jump or..rant..is called for. I do agree that a kind word is better than a put down. People are people, what one thinks is a gentle legit critisicm is to another an attack, not vicious maybe, but still an attack. So, care and thought always. Easily said, I've been on both sides of that one. Not fun either way.
I don't always agree with you..don't fully this time, mostly, but not fully. But I will listen and think..well ok...I try and think(no, not exactly blonde)just semi-literate and auburnish.
As for most that come here not caring..there I think I do disagree. Shrug...I could be wrong, it has been known once or...
Kristina

Most Don't care

Thank you for caring. I also received a PM about this point and want to clarify.

When I said “Thank you fro reading my post and commenting. It appears most who come here don't care.” I was referring to the fact that most who come to this site are looking for stories and don’t really care about a discussion about what should and shouldn’t go into a comment.

I posted a comment a few days ago titled “A March to Mediocrity” which has received a mere 189 hits. Compare that to the number of hits the front-page stories have received and you will get my point.

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Relative hits

erin's picture

Part of the difference is that blogs and forums appear at the bottom of the page. I do that because most people do come here for the stories, so your point is valid; I just wanted to observe that the proportion is not quite what it seems. :)

About 400 people each visit BC every day or more often, and nearly 2000 visit more often than once a month. Since there are over 3000 unique visitors per day (up from about 1600 a day this time last year) on any given day there are about 1000 visitors who have not been here before, or at least not in more than a month. It's unlikely they are even going to find the blogs and forums on their first visit.

Really, those 400 very active visitors (about half of whom are members) are the main audience for blogs such as this. Getting almost half of them to read a particular blog is an accomplishment. Blogs and forums get more action since I moved the blogroll above the comment roll on the front page. :)

- Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

This is a vital discussion

There are a lot of very valid points made here. As a new author, and as one whose lifelong ambition to write seems to have been made possible by my recent decision to begin a slow emergence form the closet and my crysalis, I am caught in conflicting emotions about comments.

When I posted my first baby in the Stardust Competition I had no real expectation of winning (and I didn't, so that was a good call :-), but what I really wanted was some feedback, and I got it. Some good, some with valid criticism. I love the comments that praised it. They are all but engraved on my heart. I learned most from the comments that criticised it. What is hardest to handle is the lack of comments I have had here.

For me the key is that I hope to write to gain financial independance and perhaps the ability to transition one day. The short stories I post here (and there are more on the way) are both cathartic and an exercise in writing. I am trying to develop characters and to create original views. Both are difficult tasks. I am aware that split infinitives and what we in England call the "Grocers' Apostrophe" (deliberate error) can be red rags to certain bulls and I will take those criticisms with the rest, but please, if anyone can help me to write better by discussing my work I would really value that.

And maybe then I will have the confidence to do the same for some of you.

Tara.
x

The strangest journeys start with a single step.

Help to improve writing

Hope Eternal Reigns's picture

Dear Tara,

If I could be allowed to put in a comment. My best advice to you; find yourself at least two proofreaders *that you trust* and turn at least one of them into an editor as that person learns to understand your thoughts in writing. Proofreaders will automatically correct spelling, word usage and grammar, and editor will rewrite parts of a story to improve it. (maybe making it more dramatic, more exciting or more emotional etc.) That is why finding an editor is more of a two way communication.

That is my advice, for what it's worth.

Thaks.

with love,

Hope

with love,

Hope

Once in a while I bare my soul, more often my soles bear me.

Tara, the folks at Stardust ...

... also spend a lot of time here, which is why your story posted here got fewer comments than it did over at Stardust. Wherever folks read it first, that's where they're most likely to post. Try an experiment -- next time you finish a story, post at BigCloset first and you'll see many of the same screen names on the comments you get here that you saw at Stardust on your contest entry.

Randalynn

Thank you

Hope and Randalynn,

Thank you for your comments. I will start a search for a suitable editor immediately. Any recommendations?

I may have sounded a bit peeved in my first post. I'm not, but I suppose I was hoping for some different commentators and I should have realised. I noted that there were a lot more people active here, but I should have realised that the really active ones are present on both.

Would either of you be prepared to work with me?

Tara
x

The strangest journeys start with a single step.

Concentrate on the essentials.

Dear Tara,

"I am trying to develop characters and to create original views." I think those are the essentials. Concentrate on them.

Split infinitives can be a good thing. 'To boldly go' is far more striking than 'To go boldly'. Just be aware of it and don't overdo it - i.e. do it rarely. Ignore anyone who carps at it. The correct use of apostrophes is more serious as their incorrect use can distort meaning. Also because such is one of my pet hates! But in the greater scheme of things it doesn't really matter. All you have to do is to get the story right. Oh and lay it out attractively. Not slab upon slab of indigestible text.

Read what you have written and if it is easy to read, if it flows and carries you along, then you have succeeded. Better a split infinitive than an awkward contrivance to avoid one. And remember that in speech people make grammatical faults all the time. Speech without errors sounds false. So, depending on the character, allow for that too.

I personally don't use a proof reader. My word processor has a spell checker (of appalling fallibility!) and that suffices. I am sure it shows, but a few errors in the text are a small price to pay compared with expecting someone to plough minutely through what I have written. And I would not let an editor get within a million miles of it. We would become mortal enemies after the first paragraph had been reviewed.

Admittedly my advice is pretty worthless as I have no ambition to write professionally as you have. So I have only my own convenience and ego to consider. And you at least have written one story whereas I have yet to finish my first. It is just that I have this conviction that people worry too much about the frills and furbelows at the expense of just .... well ... just writing. Different of course if you are going into print and establishing a career as an author (or an authoress - a word now alas seemingly fallen into disuse/disrepute.)

But even so. Even when taking in to account such a crucial difference .... 'The play's the thing' as someone once said. Or the story in my case. In our case surely?

Hugs,

Fleurie

Fleurie

Essentials etc.

Hope Eternal Reigns's picture

dear Fleurie,

You make several valid points, developing original ideas and characters are the cornerstones of great writing. Further, I agree, a writer should read through a story a few times to make sure the flow and 'feel' follows the idea said writer intended. Breaking established rules of grammar, a device of emphasis, can be quite effective.

I'm not positive, though, whether your example of 'split infinitive' is in actual fact, split. The separating word is an adverb, literally, a word that describes and/or enhances a verb (or adjective), and therefor, from the way I understand the rules of grammar, permitted in this case. A much better, classical example would have been, "to a nunnery go" where indeed the Bard breaks the rule for emphasis. (With the impied "I charge you to" also left out for dramatic purposes.)

I'm probably a little strange in my belief that before breaking a rule, any rule, one should KNOW and understand the rule and how breaking it will affect a given situation. Pablo Picasso did not begin painting in the surrealist style until he had perfected realism to a higher degree than almost any other painter ever. As for the Bard, well, he pretty much 'wrote the book' on english grammar.

Where I disagree more strongly though is your advice against the use of proofreaders. I have written several stories in the past and numerous papers for university courses. I find it impossible to read over my own work and see all the errors. If I want to be SURE of my work, I always ask for someone to check it before posting or sending it. Editing is a more difficult situation and writers and editors NEED to know and trust each-other in order to work together.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my opinions.

with love,

Hope

with love,

Hope

Once in a while I bare my soul, more often my soles bear me.

Untrustworthy advice

Dear Hope,

I think that you follow mainstream thought in that it is prudent at least to know the rules before breaking them. You have my whole hearted agreement. I am not at all sure that Pablo Picasso perfected realism to an almost higher degree than any other painter ever though, and I would even demur that 'The Bard' pretty much 'wrote the book' on English grammar.

You may well be right about my choice of an example about a split infinitive. Doubtless I could have thought about it longer and harder and avoided an adverb. Still the infinitive is split and my old English master would have handed out a double detention for it. Not a beating offence but not far off. Just shows how careful one must be about whose rules you learn.

But all this is nit picking on my behalf.

And I did point out that my advice on the subject was worthless to anyone harbouring ambitions to be taken seriously as a writer. I am sure that anyone can find plenty of errors in my writing that an assiduous proof reader would have corrected. In reading one's own work one sees what one meant to write and not what one has. I just don't think it matters very much. Indeed it is largely irrelevant to the enjoyment of a story as long as it is kept within reasonable bounds.

I am not against it. I just don't have it done myself for the reasons I gave. If you want another reason I think that a writer without the safety net of a proofreader is likely to be rather more conscientious in ensuring that his or her work is as perfect as they can make it. Which I personally think is a good thing.

I suppose basically I just want to make a plea for writers to see the wood rather than the smaller saplings. I have seen instances in here of writers who are frustrated from posting by their inability to find someone to proofread or edit their work. I think they should just get on with it. And not be so frightened of being damned for trivialities that they don't publish the tale they have to tell.

Hugs,

Fleurie

Fleurie

Agreed

We seem to be on the same page today, Fleurie. :)

Proofreaders have their place, but it is possible to write a story without one. Take a day or two off -- it shouldn't take much longer than that -- and study the rules of grammar. Pick up a Strunk and White or the equivalent. That should solve about 90% of the grammatical problems, with the rest mainly due to carelessness.

As far as editing goes, well, I would recommend reading a book on fiction writing -- it wouldn't have to anything fancy -- and then applying the lessons ... or not, but at least you'll know what you are doing when you craft the story. Editors can be nice, but they aren't absolutely essential. One can successfully self-edit, and the effort is likely to save time.

Fleurie is right: A few errors here and there aren't likely to bother anyone very much if the overall effort is solid. It's the story that counts. All the technical skill in the world isn't going to help if the tale and characters aren't interesting.

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

To split deliberately?

If I had responded to the thread on reference works, I would have included a personal favourite that no-one else has mentioned; 'Fowler's Modern English Usage'. Let me say at once that the "Modern" in the title is misleading, since the book was written in 1926. The version I use is the 1965 revision by Sir Ernest Gowers, himself an authority on the language.

I assert the competence of Fowler and Gowers to pronounce on this matter, because the "English" to which the title refers is that used by Fleurie and myself - the English of England. Additionally, by citing Shakespeare, Hope has permitted me to use an authority that is temporally situated between the Bard and the present day. {Fleurie - living where you do, it is probable that your lingo is slightly closer to the Bard's than mine is; but that's another issue :) }

Fowler was not a pedant, though I may be thought so. {You are all permitted your opinion, just as long as it is expressed politely.} Rather, Fowler takes a very practical view of language. In the context of the split infinitive, he begins:

"The English-speaking world may be divided into
(1) those who neither know nor care what a split infinitive is;
(2) those who do not know, but care very much;
(3) those who know and condemn;
(4) those who know and approve;
(5) those who know and distinguish."

"1. Those who neither know nor care are the vast majority, and are a happy folk, to be envied by most of the minority classes..."

"2. To the second class, those who do not know but do care, who would as soon be caught putting their knives in their mouths as splitting an infinitive but have only hazy notions of what constitutes that deplorable breach of etiquette, this article is chiefly addressed. These people betray by their practice that their aversion to the split infinitive springs not from instinctive good taste but from tame acceptance of the misinterpretations of others; for they will subject their sentences to the queerest distortion, all to escape imaginary split infinitives."

...

"3. The above writers are bogy-haunted creatures who for fear of splitting an infinitive abstain from doing something quite different ... Those who presumably do know what split infinitives are, and condemn them, are not so easily identified since they include all who neither commit the sin nor flounder about in saving themselves from it - all who combine a reasonable dexterity with an acceptance of conventional rules. But when dexterity is lacking, disaster follows."

...

"4. Just as those [ie those in #3] include many who are not recognisable ... those who know and approve are not distinguishable with certainty."

...

"5. The attitude of those who know and distinguish is something like this: We admit that the separation of to from its infinitive is not in itself desirable and we shall not gratuitously say [he gives several examples]. We maintain however that a real s.i., though not desirable in itself is preferable to either of two things, to real ambiguity, and to patent artificiality."

So, as Hope suggests, split whenever you think it will improve the writing, but first and foremost, understand what it is you are doing.

And there I must take issue with her on the subject of adverbs. In Fowler's opinion anything inserted between "to" and the infinitive form of the verb is a split. Fowler insists that this does not nor should not prohibit judicious use of the technique. But Fowler notes some false identifications, one to do with a miss-identification of the actual infinitive, others where the "rule" is extended to parts of the verb conjugation other than the infinitive.

In particular he cites the 'passive infinitive' for example "(I expect) to be flamed". "(I expect) to be thoroughly flamed" is not a 'split', but "(I expect) to thoroughly be flamed" is a 'split' (as well as being very disphonius, if there is such a word).

As far as the question of self-proofing or asking someone else is concerned, that is a decision an author must take for herself. Personally I would agree with Hope - I usually tend to 'see' what I think I wrote, irrespective of what is on the page. But for my own company documentation I manage by using a spell-checker, a grammar checker (which is usually 'more honoured in the breach'), and particularly by ensuring several hours' interval (at least) between writing and checking.

But, as Hope infers, none of this matters if the story does not fly; if characterisation is weak or plot foundations are wanting. One of my favourite stories is Wanda's first 'Trans Glimpse' "Pink Sky". It's all there in just 300 words. But in that space Wanda tells a satisfyingly complete tale.

Also the story has to be the author's story as she wants it. If the author is not true to her tale what profit is in it? If we non-writers - who are possibly the largest cohort of readers - don't like it, then that is our loss.

I'd like to ask if Fleurie is as much concerned with the possibility of the proofer's role shading into providing more than a simple service of noting miss-spellings and miss-placed upper/lower cases? Even at the level of basic punctuation I have disagreed with authors; but I take the view that it is the proofer's role to find these things, but the author's right to choose.

Proofing is actually a dismal job; it takes most of the joy out of reading. I usually read through once for pleasure first, because after that it is drudge work.

Xi

Fowler hits mark

Dear Xi,

I too am a keen advocate of Fowler's Modern English Usage. And I could add Sir Ernest's 'The Complete Plain Words' as worth a place in a readily accessible bookcase.

I am fully of the former's opinion in the matter of split infinitives though, which confirmation will I know bring infinite pleasure to his descendants. And I know I can speak for them as well as myself in thanking our well informed Guest Reader for giving me the opportunity to thus endorse Fowler's original opinion.

In case Aardvark ever reads this and feels that I have been a tad hypocritical in the past when I have wasted a good deal of his time in swearing blind that I utterly repudiate all rules seeing them only as barriers to the soul's expression, I would like to explain that I consult Fowler only to settle bets on various points of English Grammar etc. that I have entered into during prolonged sessions at my local pub.

On first reading Xi's comment, well skimming through it being in a non-proof reading frame of mind, I actually misread his/her comment about living nearer to Shakespeare as relating to timescale rather than comparative geographical locations. I would like to place on record the fact that, although perhaps no longer in the first flush of youth, I am not that old! Not to be an actual contemporary anyway.

As to the question regarding my concern with the proofer's role shading into more than just that, the answer lies more in the remark about proofing being a dismal job. I wouldn't inflict that on anyone. I am not prepared to do it myself and so I could not conceivably ask anyone to perform such a service for me. And I really don't think it necessary. It's not as if fortunes are at stake in setting up the printing of a 10,000 copy run.

Although Xi is right in thinking I would welcome even less a proof reader who went further than the mechanics of the position. His/Her comment -

"Also the story has to be the author's story as she wants it. If the author is not true to her tale what profit is in it? If we non-writers - who are possibly the largest cohort of readers - don't like it, then that is our loss."

- could have been written by myself. Only of course I would probably have over elaborated it!

Hugs,

Fleurie

Fleurie

Pubs and grammar

Hi Fleurie.

You must go to some interesting pubs. I've been to parties like that, though. :) The thought of any hypocrisy never entered my mind. I agree with you about varying English when necessary. Sir Winston Churchill, who some regard as a pretty good writer, had words about the practice of ending ALL sentences without a preposition. The "rules" that we discussed were about plotting and effectiveness, and I agree that it is the prerogative of the author to write what he wants, when he wants.

Many regards,

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

I mostly work from intuitive feeling

Hope Eternal Reigns's picture

Thank you Xi,

I am more than happy to be corrected, as it allows me to learn.

Being Canadian, I use a form of "English" that seems to be a sort of half way between British (The Queen's) English and 'Mer'can. I quite deplore the bastardization of the English language, but there are such strong influences, through so many media, on the language today it is quite difficult to remain unaffected.

Unlike you, Xi, when proofing, I prefer to correct the language as I read for the first time, mainly because erroneous language just seems to set my teeth on edge. One of the contacts I have in the proofing group has stated a very similar feeling, so I have at least a little support for my, oh lets call it a fetish.

Thank you for your post I very much enjoyed all your points, even when they didn't quite agree with my way of thinking.

with love,

Hope

with love,

Hope

Once in a while I bare my soul, more often my soles bear me.

To gleefully go to a nunnery

erin's picture

"To boldly go" is what is comminly called a split infinitive, which is not actually against English grammar rules as many people think. It's a stylistic thing, if it works, use it.

"To a nunnery go" is not a split infinitive; "to a nunnery" is a prepositional phrase and "go" is the command form of the bare verb. It's "go to a nunnery" with word order inverted for emphasis.

It's no wonder people are unsure of just what a split infinitive is because the concept was invented by Victorian grammarians who thought English should more closely resemble Latin and in Latin, and most Latinate languages, splitting the infinitive would be silly since infinitives are unitary, single words. But English, despite lots of Latin-derived words, has a grammar that is distinctly un-Latinate. English grammar is partly derived from Teutonic roots but simplified by having passed through one or more periods in which English was a creole, a mix of Anglo-Saxon, Norman French and Norse-Danish. Complicated grammar rules got left out, though many were added back in as the language developed into something more than what your kids used to talk to the boss's or neighbor's kids.

The same thing happened within the last couple of centuries in South Africa between Dutch, English and various native African languages resulting in Afrikaans. It keeps trying to happen along the US-Mexican border with school kids inventing and re-inventing "Spanglish" which is frequently Spanish verbs, English grammar and mixed vocabulary. A similar phenomenon on the borders of Quebec makes francophiles fear that Quebecois French is doomed without government support. Paraguay has a semi-offical creole language based on Guarani, Spanish and German.

Most creoles seem to have similar grammars (actually, I think it is all but I can't find a reference that supports that, and there are cases that could be considered partial exceptions); subject-verb-object sentence order, auxiliary verbs preferred over verb endings, and other features. These features may be wired into our brains as a sort of default language construction kit.

I'll shut up now, linguistics is one of my hobbies. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Wouldn't It Be Nunnery

We roared in high school English when we noted a "nunnery" in Shakespeare's time was an insane asylum. Sister Rose, our English teacher, failed to see the humor.

So, my dear Erin, as BC's version of Nurse Ratched you might already be in the nunnery.

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Hmmm, wonder who's right?

According to my English teacher from high school (an American teaching in an international school in Belgium), the "nunnery" in Willie's usage referred to a house of ill-repute. So I guess it's a bit open to interpretation. But that was many years ago, so I might not have all the details straight. ;)

Just another random digression.

Karen J.

"A dress makes no sense unless it inspires men to want to take it off you."
Francoise Sagan


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

And Manners?

There's an overworked marketing gig (that is nonetheless a useful touchstone) "If you like it, tell others; if not, tell us."

It seems to me that in this context the concept lines up with common courtesy. With apologies for a second platitude in as many paragraphs, "Do as you would be done by" is a good place to start. And I would add "... without any self-delusion as to the thickness of your own skin."

It is easy for X to say to herself, "this is deserved criticism; I would be grateful for someone doing this for me." That of itself may be true; equally it may be self-delusion. Either way, doing it publicly is another dimension.

I came to the view quite early on that some authors might be suffer with "thin skin" as Angela suggests. On the principles above, having 'engaged brain before opening communication channel' I must then use that brain to consider the effect of what I write on those it is aimed at; and the other potential readers as well. Some of what I have seen here in comments seems to be almost ASD in its disregard for the feelings of others - that is sad but if it is genuinely ASD it is excusable. Some of the other behaviour I would simply classify as bullying.

Perhaps it is worth remembering that many bullies depend for their continued existence on the fact that their victims are more civilised than they are; the victims will not stoop to the level of the bullies nor fight back. The other day I saw a very high profile corporate bully (that is how I view the way she behaves), rendered into silence by the implacable opposition of the management committee I am on and to which she notionally answers. Later, I overheard her trying to build a constituency of support for her 'proposals' (as in "I propose you take it or you take it") by lobbying individuals. She was complaining of being bullied by another member of the committee, who had done no such thing; but the latter had had the courage to stand up to the bully's steamroller tactics.

"Do as you would be done by" is as far from a bully's modus operandi as Mother Teresa is from Genghis Khan. I'm certain that I do it; if only people would tell me when and how, I could try to moderate my behaviour.

Xi

ASD?

Hope Eternal Reigns's picture

Inquiring minds want to know.

Ok, it is only 'ignorant I' who would like to know the meaning of the TLA in the title, please?

with love,

Hope

P.S. In keeping with my belief, 'one shouldn't use a TLA without explanation', TLA stands for 'three letter acronym', a self-describing TLA. I quite like the self-symmetry of this. - HER

with love,

Hope

Once in a while I bare my soul, more often my soles bear me.

PCW

erin's picture

Perfectly cromulent word. :)

- Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

ASD

erin's picture

Autism Spectrum Disorder. I googled it and then realized, well, I knew that. Had an autistic friend who was big on the opinion that ASD is not a disorder for most people, just a different way of functioning. Maybe, but when socialization blindspots cause the individual to suffer, it sure looks like a disorder. The stereotypical "nerd" personality is a good description of someone with one version of a mild ASD. And a good description of a lot of my friends. :) Since I have AADD (Adult Attention Deficit Disorder) I even fit the specturm. There's some debate about CDD (Chocolate Deficit Disorder), though. :)

- Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.