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I am a male bisexual and have gay and lesbian friends but no TG/TS friends. I say I don't have any TG/TS friends but that's "as far as I know". I could have but they haven't come out to me and/or are so passable as for me not to question it.
What I am interested in is sexual preferences. This is because I'm ignorant in this situation and wish to become informed, not to upset anyone. Thus my header! I know my gay friends want only same-gender relationships, whether gay male or lesbian. My preference is for female relationships but still really enjoy male relationships, as well. Without any real experience with TG/TS people I find myself wondering why M2F trasitioners mostly end up in lesbian relationships. I mean, if you're already a female in your mind, did you start out as a lesbian female? Or was it being forced to live as a male, you've "acquired" a preference for a female partner? I know I sound stupid and readily admit that I am. I would just think that if you were always a female in your mind, you would naturally tend to be a heterosexual female in about the same ratio as the "normal" population.
I'm really serious about this, not trying to be hurtful. Please be honest with me and don't take any of this as some kind of personal attack. I'm really curious.
Thank you to anyone who helps me to learn.
Comments
as for me,
I knew I liked girls before I was able to face being trans. I dont know what the ratio is, but I'm sure there are a lot of us who like boys before and after transitioning.
Bisexual
well, I can see the attraction of both genders. However, in my current form I couldn't see myself being with a guy. I really would need to feel like woman before heading that direction. I can't see how I could have sex guy to guy. When I fantasize about guys I tend to imagine myself as the woman.
I feel I went a little too personal. But hey, this is an open community. Hope that may help.
And, although I've never gotten to that point in any of my stories, I mix up the types of relationships my characters have. I'm not a strict girl x girl type of writer.
An interesting pilgrimage to womanhood.
Greetings to you.
I am afraid that this could be a long post. My birth name was Gwinn, which sounds like Gwen. Mom raised me as a girl, and made no secret of her disappointment that I was not physically a girl. Well, these many years later, I find that I was likely born with at least partially both sets of sexual organs, and like others I know, the Doctor likely removed one set. This was the usual practice in the 40's and 50's. He probably did not tell Mom, though there were quiet comments during my youth.
So by age 4, I knew I was a girl and when my stepfather came on the scene, it seemed like a great tragedy to find out that I was a boy. It was with a profound sense of injustice and loss that I was forced to live as a boy, and by the time I was a teen, faced with the certainty of severe beatings, I forgot my true nature and started acting like a boy. I always knew something was wrong but not what.
So it was that I got married and had two children. As they grew up, I loved them dearly, but also knew that something was dreadfully wrong. So, while involved in a group of survivors of sexual violence, I began to remember things, very bad things. As time went on, I was informed that I was female in my head, but the true unfolding of my past and new nightmare would yet take years.
So, as events unfolded, the more I thought about being female, I realised that I was supposed to prefer males as a partner and the very idea that I would be intimate with a male just felt horrifying. Being devoutly religious, those revelations felt like the end of my life; of being told I had a terminal disease.
So, in my previous 40 years of marriage, I preferred the company of my wife, though I must admit that during coitus, I often fantasized about being the female, but at the time the significance was lost on me.
My life changed rapidly after 2003; first trying to figure out if I was gay, and quickly understanding that I was not, and then realsing that I was supposed to be attracted to males, and the very idea filling me with abject horror! I could not fathom sleeping with the enemy, no not one wit.
In the years since my SRS surgery, and being in my 60's I began to understand that I would likely never have a sexual partner, and for that time being celibate felt OK, even agreeable.
So, in the last 5 years I have come to peace with the idea that I have almost no sex urges, almost completely asexual. Recently, a man in church started acting like he liked me, and then as I thought about it, I find that the idea of befriending a male does not seem objectionable.
It is my opinion that post op transfolk are mostly celibate, not because they are so holy, but because there is really little physical sex drive. Most men have the sensitivity about the emotional needs of a woman of a pig, and few of us find a man that wants anything from us but sexual gratification, not that there is a huge backlog of suitors.
Still there is that well hidden pearl that may happen once in a life time ... I knew a man like that once, but he up and had a stroke and died.
Post-ops are celibate?
I don't think so. Many can and do find loving relationships. Very few lose their sexual feelings.
I have to disagree
I have to disagree.
Most MTF post-ops lose some of the physical gratification that they used to have, but the sexual drive does not disappear. A "transitioner's" reason to transition, at least in my opinion, is not just sexual in nature, but rather the need to live life as a female. I suppose a point of view which largely revolves around sexual gratification is a male perspective, and if a person has a male perspective, then perhaps that person is not suited to transition.
That is not to say that a male's perspective is just that - just about sexual gratification - even though iit is a fact of male life that a large portion of their drives are run by their senses - that's why they like their food, they like their movies, they like their music, and they like their sex. However, it is a disservice to men that they should be dismissed outright for being sensualists/pigs. Men DO have their other drives that go beyond the five senses. That is like dismissing women for being bitches, when in fact, they are just being true to their nature of being the "gatherer" portion of the hunter-gatherer equation, or the nurturer.
It would be wonderful if women could get past that part of men, and men could get past that part of women, and see the true person. It would be truly small and mean of a person to not make the effort, and just rely on shallow surface impressions only.
As to the celibacy thing because of no sex drive - I can only speak of my own experience and the information that I have been given: there is indeed some loss in sensation after SRS, but not a total loss, and that depends on the type of procedure that your surgeon performed and the skill of the surgeon himself. If I had to state a figure, I'd probably say that there is a 15-20% loss of sensation, but the sex act, and the enjoyment of the sex act is, at least partially, a mental thing. In my own experience, I enjoy it, and, truthfully, because I live as I want now, I actually enjoy it more, although orgasms are more diffused (that's the closest term I can think of) instead of concentrated, but then again it lasts longer and it's "softer"and therefore better. But that's just my opinion.
To be fair, though, according to my therapist, I am one of the few that she's worked with that had a difficult time to "find my orgasm." She says it's probably because my mental transition wasn't as "complete" as it was with most others, since the sex act is partially mental, especially for women, But once I accepted that I was REALLY a woman, I "found my orgasm," and once I found it, it became easier and easier to replicate it, provided you practice enough heehee. But, it's true - getting in the mood is key, and foreplay is essential, and having the right partner is the most important thing, especially if you love your partner. But that is just half of it - I find that my gratification also comes from knowing my partner is satisfied as well. The after-sex can be as good (but in a different way, of course) and as important as your achieving orgasm. I think the orgasm-centric pov is very male. I guess that's why "making love" is different to "having sex," and "making love" is a billion times better. But that's just my opinion.
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I certainly hope...
I certainly hope I don't turn "celibate" post-op... I think my wife would be very disappointed. I know I would be. And, to listen to our kids, I think they would be disappointed... They get a kick out of teasing my wife and I anyway. LOL
We're all different people, we have different experiences. I honestly think that expecting us to all be A or B... Is far to simplistic.
As I say - we're different - thus your path and my path bear little resemblance. This, I think, has to do with both our backgrounds and who we are, as well as our spouses/families. Both are equally valid descriptions of M2F people and provide a striking demonstration of the variety that abounds.
BTW - I also fanticized of being the female... Back in the day - but never with a Guy. My original therapist had me doing exercises and such to try to envision having sex with a guy, and I just couldn't (and still can't).
Annette
I don't think that
That M2Fs are predominantly homosexual, heck I know far more stright M2F TG/TS person then I know homosexual ones ( I also know quite a few bisexuals ).
There have been multiple
There have been multiple surveys, some even by real researchers. On average, about 20-35% of LATE transitioners self report as preferring women as partners. @49% Late transitioners prefer heterosexual relationships, BUT, after being often rejected by het males, they sometimes "settle" for relationships with other women or even other TS post-ops when they cannot find a het relationship. About 5%+/_ self report as Asexual, and the remainder consider themselves as bisexual.
Younger post-op transitioners, meaning more passable and usually transitioning in the late teens or mid-twenties and after at least hormone blockers during puberty, more often find heterosexual relationships. However, I have not read any good studies that don't tend to conflate the two groups, early and late transitioners. So take the proportions with that grain of salt, eh. The reason is that sometimes there seems like a relatiionship between pre-op sex preference (habituated maybe) and post-op sexuality.
LynnConway.com might have a more up to date survey now, since I haven't looked at it for at least 5 years. (might be http://www.lynnconway.com ).
On the other hand, crossdressers or TG folks on one survey reported 69% heterosexual, @29% bisexual (when dressed), and @1-2% as gay, meaning preferring men in any context, and the remainder in the survey did not indicate a preference. This source was, I believe, from pamshouseblend.com, unless my memory fails, and it could. There was a further breakdown where people qualified their preferences so that some preferred T girls only, some T-guys only, and some preferred T-girls when they were also dressed. These could not be related to the other stats in any coherent way.
Another source of all kinds of information is the blog of A.E.Brain (http://www.aebrain.com) She has lots of stats and studies most of which are more up-to-date than other sources. She has lot of information on sexuality, gender and intersexed so you could spend a few days reading the material there and come away with a pretty good working knowledge of the relationship, or lack of it, between gender and sexuality.
CaroL
I don't believe...
I don't believe you can make any simple statement on sexual orientation about transexuals (M2F or F2M) as a group.
I personally know M2F girls who prefer females. Some who are Bisexual and some who have a strong preference for males. And some are asexual (prefer neither males nor females). I don't know as many F2M men, so I can't say as much from experience there. The two I know best - one prefers men the other women.
IMO there is no real relationship between gender identity and sexual orientation. *shrugs*
For what it's worth - it is also possible for a heterosexual individual to have a sexual relationship with ONE person of the same gender despite an almost overwhelming orientation toward members of the "other" gender. *shrugs*
It's complicated, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Annette
Spectrum
I think you may be mistaken in that 'M2F transitioners mostly end up in lesbian relationships', since my experience says the trend is the other way. However, I do believe there is a larger percentage of transwomen who are lesbians or at least bi.
In my experience sexual orientation, like gender, is a spectrum rather than a binary or trinary (straight, gay, bi). And pretty much nobody is 100% straight or 100% gay (or 100% bi, for that matter). So basically, I think everybody is bi to some extent, with most having a strong leaning one way or the other. And this is affected by a lot of factors both physical (in the brain, body shape) and societal. So someone who is fairly middle of the road, but identifies as straight at least in part to societal pressures, may find themselves identifying as straight after transitioning (thus being primarily attracted to men instead of women or the reverse).
Really they could probably have a relationship with either, but for whatever societal reasons feel they could only have a relationship with one (or at least have a strong preference in that direction). But for others their orientation is stronger in one direction so doesn't 'change' after transitioning (like me).
Then there's the fact that TS/TG people have a tendency to be more open-minded (at least by the time they transition) as a result of their experiences. So they are more likely to accept a 'non-standard' orientation where others would not. Basically, TG people tend to be further in towards the bi portion of the spectrum due to open-mindedness and experience (in my opinion/experience).
I'm pretty sure sexual orientation is pretty much set at a very early age, so to answer your question; yes, I started out as a lesbian female. I suppose the experience of living as male could make someone more open to the idea of being attracted to women (especially if their religion is pushing them that way), but I imagine most are able to be more true to themselves after transition if not before.
So, basically it's a societal thing that, thanks to our experiences, makes it easier to be 'different' (since we already are in a much more visible way). At least, that's what I see. Others may have a different take on it.
Hope that's of some help,
Saless
"But it is also tradition that times *must* and always do change, my friend." - Eddie Murphy, Coming To America
I think sometimes
That by being transgender it helps people see people for who they are. I love people more for who they are and how they act. What they are gender-wise or how they look are mostly secondary things to me. Definitely moreso when many in society share negative views of us, gays and transgender alike.
Good answer...
...and the "spectrum" theory was going to be the bulk of my reply :)
All I'd really say in addition is that IMHO it's quite likely that gender identity and partner preference are set at different stages in gestation, so the one doesn't necessarily have any bearing on the other. It's even possible people may have different preferences for sexual partner and lifelong relationship partner. On a purely biological / procreative sense, the person best suited to assisting you in the task of passing your genes onto the next generation may not be the person best suited to raising a family (and for males the natural biological imperative would be to spread your genes far and wide!). Of course, societal expectations (mainly informed by religion) force a compromise in that they expect people to choose a single partner to form both roles for life.
Of course, humans are such a complex creature that the next generation require an investment of at least 18 years care, support and tuition - a task that is just as beneficial (if not more so) than reproduction and (of course) doesn't necessarily need to be performed by the biological parents. Of course, in centuries past it wasn't all that uncommon for one or other (or even both) biological parent(s) to die before their offspring reached maturity. So if the biological parents die before their offspring reaches maturity, LGBT* and infertile people can contribute to the pool of adults available to step in and care / support / tutor the children until they reach maturity: so while they may not contribute their genes to the next generation, they contribute their knowledge / skills / experience / understanding etc.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
You already asked this...
You've already asked this question before. You've already been given answers before: http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/forum/35236/serious-question
I don't want to get my "hackles" up but your question is inherintly ignorant. It presupposes that sexuality is a choice. If a person were to be legitimately curious about sexuality and honestly didn't know about it I don't think I'd be annoyed. But you've already been given your answers and continue to ask the same ignorantly rude questions.
How many different ways can this be answered? You are born with your sexuality. You don't choose. Gender and sexuality are different. Maybe you should go back to your original question and take a look at the answers posted there before re-asking the same thing.
You don't sound curious at this point. You sound like you're trolling transgender people.
Wow... that's just...
Are you choosing not to listen Erica? I remembered seeing this before, but didn't quite connect it was also the very same person asking!
The answer won't change no matter how many times you ask the question: there IS no link, therefore your presupposed notion upon which you've based the question is invalid.
I think that perhaps some small number of TS who might otherwise have been bi may end up lesbian because of the abuse suffered at the hands of het males.
Abigail Drew.
Damn!
Celynn and Abigail ... thank you.
That post was on the Chatlog, not My Blog and I missed all those responses since I didn't know how to get back to it.
You're right; I DID ask this question before. I just didn't remember doing it after all this time and, like I said, couldn't get back to see the answers back then as a newbie.
I'm just now reading all the responses I got there. Between the two, Chatlog and My Blog, I've got a TON of information to study now.
My apologies for the redundancy. I'm still getting used to this place and promise to eventually learn enough that I won't be such a PITA.
Hugs,
Erica
oh, ok.
I suppose we can forgive you then ;P
But yeah, there really is no link, and there really aren't "more lesbians" among trans-women than among natal women. At least not significantly. The numbers might be skewed slightly for there to be less who self-report as bi and slightly more who report as lesbian, because of the abuse angle... but even that I'd doubt it'd be a remarkable number statistically. The het numbers will remain about the same among the two demographics, taking into consideration that the trans-woman demographic is an inherently smaller pool than the natal woman demographic, the skew might be "interesting" at best, but wouldn't be anything to really merit basing anything on.
Abigail Drew.
I can only speak for myself...
As far back as my memories go, I've been aware of 2 things. One, that I was a girl, and 2, that I was a girl who liked boys. I tried really hard to be a gay guy for 21 years. That didn't fly. I'm lucky enough to have found love fairly early and even more lucky that my husband is staying with me through my transition and after. I wouldn't call it a smooth road but it works for us.
Dear Erica...
...I knew when I was five that I wanted to become/was a girl. I've always loved girls and women and I've never been attracted to men, but that's just me. And as far as getting my hackles up? I only have them up to store them out of the way. Hope this helps!
Love, Andrea Lena
Gender and sexuality.
Most transexuals I know (either pre or post op,) tell me there seems to be little or no connection between gender and sexuality.
It seems to me that their chosen lifestyles tend to indicate their sexualities which will most probably dictate their life-styles after transition.
My closest T/S friend tells me that she and her female partner definitely intend to remain 'on the scene' after surgery but they are always out clubbing; that's where I met them. Other T/S friends who are (And I use this word with reservations)heterosexual seems much more varied in their activities after transition. Several of them have gone stealth and have told me that they only want me to remain in touch if I modify my own behaviour and do not attract attention to them.
I have agreed to their beseechments quite readily and fairly. I only meet them when I'm in avowedly Male Mode with my hair neatly pony-tailed.
This way they get a male friend who is NOT sexually interested but quite prepared to meet them for cups of tea in the afternoons and to provide them with male company for things like cycle trips and matinee visits to the theatre. My own wife recognises this and sometimes comes with us (especially for the shopping trips.)
My wife knows she can trust me because I have always been totally loyal to her. Both while courting and all through our married life. It is that loyalty born of respect for women (probably emanating from my large feminine side (possibly 60 or 70%)) that tells my wife I am trustworthy.
I thinks Gwen explains this side of T/S lives very well.
That's all for now,
I'm off out cycling.
Bev.