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When discussing things "around the water cooler" here at BigCloset/Janglewood (read as inside a skype chat window), we often have troubles picking one "definition" for what various terms mean. We often share the same "flow" with slight differences, but we know there are many different feelings in the community.
Some people often feel that Transgender and Transsexual are the same thing, but others include Transgender to be an umbrella term for everyone including Gender Queer, Non-Binary, Transsexual, Transvestite, etc.
While I'm not going to put all my personal definitions out here for the world, I am curious about yours. To start things off, I think I'm going to include the Definitions from the National Center for Transgender Equality as seen in the article Wendy Jean linked to earlier.
Transgender terminology
The terminology around transgender issues can be confusing. Here are some definitions from the National Center for Transgender EqualityTo be transgender means you identify with a gender that was not assigned to you at birth.
A transgender man, or trans man, is a transgender person who currently identifies as a man.
A transgender woman, or trans woman, is a transgender person who currently identifies as a woman.
Transitioning is a term used to describe when a trans person begins living as the gender he or she identifies with.
Some, but not all, trans people choose to use surgery to transition, according to the Human Rights Campaign.
(Here is the link to the full article in the Dallas News about Caitlyn Jenner and what it means/doesn't mean for the Transgender Community: http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-news/20150604-what-cait... )
Comments
I'll have to "take the fifth" as it goes.
Since in 1997 through 2000 I was involved with a trans group that came up with and distributed the list of terms in that article. [ group of 5 trans women and I was the only one not post-op ]
Stupidity is a capital offense. A summary not indictable.
It's complex and and a lot of it is still evolving.
There's a lot of things that are going on in and under the umbrella.
As for Transexual they're trans but they are very much in pursuit and need of full transition and are very much in synch with the binary. It's also a term used for those who are post op.
Bailey Summers
As far as I'm concerned
the trans bit means crossing. I've crossed got the tee shirt etc., I also have a piece of paper which says I'm legally female. So I'm not trans anything, I'm female. What other people decide for themselves is fine with me, and I'll respect their choice providing they accord me the same and don't lump me in with any definition or soubriquet I don't agree on. I've done my bit for the cause now I just want to sit back and enjoy the rest of my life as the woman I know I am and have lived as for the past nearly thirty years.
Angharad
Me too.
For me it is about the psychology. If even after the cut and rod job, you still see yourself as trans then that is counterproductive, bad psychology, and self defeating. And these days, after my genetic testing, the most I will own up to is Intersex.
Just curious,
Did you seem my blog several days ago, "5 minutes of fame"? That is me on the first picture, Wendy Jean Marsden. :)
Throwing the cat amongst the pigeons...
(although not Bonzi as I would like to keep the use of my right arm)
There is a body of thought that suggests that being transgender/transexual is a phase or process, rather than a permanent label. According to this view once you have completed transition to the point you are satisfied that your physical and mental/spiritual genders are aligned the term no longer applies.
Equally there are people in the community who would scream blue murder at such a suggestion as it reinforces the gender binary construct.
Then we have those who would like to differentiate between TS and TV claiming that TV's are merely fetishists and only TS are 'authentically' transgendered,
(although I do like the rather non PC joke;
Q. "What's the difference between a transvestite and a transexual?"
A. "About four years!")
Bluntly however the issue of finding an agreed, inclusive definition is a bit like 14th century clerics debating about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Therefore to cut the Gordian knot how do people feel about these definitions?
Transexual = human being
Transgender = human being
Gender fluid = human being
Transvestite = human being
Cisgendered = human being
Persephone
Non sum qualis eram
Sorry
But no, a Tr*nsvestite or crossdresser is not always a Trans person. A Trans person can be a crossdresser or the other one, however they are not the same. A Cisgender male who dresses in gender non-conforming clothes is not the same as a Trans woman dressing up in clothes that feel more congruent with herself. That is a Gender nonconforming Cisgender male, it's a pretty easy to use term and it separates because of the levels of oppression we face in comparison to them. Gender nonconforming Cisgender males do not face the same level of oppression as Trans women. Gender nonconforming Cis people period DO NOT face the same level of oppression as Trans people.
Transgender is about gender, Crossdressing is about clothes, the two are not the same. A Transgender person can be a self identified crossdresser, but being a crossdresser does not make you Transgender.
If you identify as a male, are Cisgender, and are a crossdresser. Then you are not Transgender. The same if you identify as female, are Cisgender, and are a crossdresser. You are not Transgender, you are a Gender nonconforming Cis person.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I Like(d) TG Better...
…as the umbrella term, at least for TS and CD. There doesn't seem to be a general term now for people presenting as the opposite gender, and I do think there's a need for one.
FWIW, I think that was the distinction when stories here were categorized TG and Non-TG by their authors. It certain was for me; I listed my short story "Greeks Bearing Gifts" as TG, since the mistaking of a young girl for a missing boy was the basis of the story. (The actual boy hidden as a girl made a cameo appearance.)
The non-TG category seemed to be there for stories that didn't involve gender issues at all, like my tall tale "Here Today…" (which I moved here after Fictioneer disappeared for a few years), ostensibly at least about the extinction of the dinosaurs.
Eric
Not sure what happened
But I did answer you on the term.
For Cis people who engage in gender nonconformity the term is this.
Gender nonconforming Cis Men
Gender nonconforming Cis Women.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
You Attached It...
…to the message above mine.
But that's not the way the TG term is being used on this site, which at the top describes itself as "a friendly place to read, write and discuss Transgender Fiction." And IMO that's as it should be. Until someone comes up with another concise umbrella term for the category here -- "fiction involving variations in gender identity and presentation" doesn't have much of a ring to it -- I'd prefer to stick with the one we're using now.
The other gender nonconformists Piper mentions, who aren't crossing gender lines but rejecting them, have less right, so to speak, to the "trans" prefix, which is the reason I didn't mention them in my original comment. Leaving them out of the category would imply that they're unwelcome here, though, and I don't think that should be true.
Eric
Two types of those who cross-dress
I'm only going to speak for MtF transgender, since I have no personal contact with FtM either in real life or online and therefore can't speak to that side.
There are basically two type of males (that is those with male bodies) who cross-dress. The first is, I'm confident is where most of us begin or think we do, the male for whom cross-dressing is a kind of escape or, as I called it, a hobby. A little something to destress, take the edge off of daily living.
I told myself for years, I was just a man with the unusual hobby of trying appear feminine. That claim evolved into trying to feel feminine... to experience the feminine, all the while maintaining that I was a "manly man." I was a woodsman's woodsman. I hunted, fished and went camping at every opportunity. I competed in TSD rallyes with the guys I knew. I washed my well trimmed hair with Ivory hand soap, not some froufrou girly shampoo like some guys, less manly men, I knew. Oh, and I was convinced I could lay it aside anytime I wanted... I just didn't want too.
But then one day I tried to put it all behind me. I discovered I couldn't. The sure cure... to get married... failed to do anything but give me access to more feminine clothing than ever before. When I couldn't give it up, I thought long and hard about who I was and what it meant that I need to experience the feminine.
Married with a young child and finally caught, I needed answers. I dearly wish there had been the internet in those days. Ten rocky years later, I found out there really was another kind of male who chose to wear feminine clothes and I had a lot more in common with them than I did with my hunting, fishing and rallying buddies. I had a feminine side that was a mile wide.
The second is the males that have to cross-dress, some of whom actually have to, as in do it or die, make the conversion (transition) to female. Believe me that scared me. I had too much going as a male to go that far. I'd just be satisfied with wearing the clothes at home and accept my wife's limited tolerance of it.
If only I could have survived that. As I went along, I had to push the boundaries of that decision. Long story short, I now come home every night from work and take off the men's shirt and pants I have to wear for work and don feminine finery. On the weekend, I don't even consider any men's clothes at all. Thankfully, my wife has accepted that.
When I retire in 2017 I intend to totally purge... that is get rid of the men's pants and shirts that I need to wear for work and stick to the women's clothes I prefer.
So, perhaps there are three actually, because the second type is subdivided between those who must transition or die and those of us who can be satisfied just to live the life and walk the walk without the surgery. Though I would like to have breast implants.
I'll leave it to others to decide on whether the first type fall under the transgender umbrella or not. I tend to think they do, simply because I was very sure that I was that first type for years, until I discovered for myself that I wasn't.
All this puts me in mind of a (kind of sick) joke that I heard when I began my journey of discovery:
Q: What's the difference between a transvestite and a transsexual?
A: About two years.
OK, not funny. It's been a lot longer than two years for me and I still doubt I'll ever make all the way to transsexual, but I'm definitely transgender.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
FYI
Transsexual is largely thrown out. Some people still use it and have the right to do so however there are no requirements for it. I personally don't like the term so I don't use it anymore (I only used it as a form of reference same with that disgusting phrase MtF (which is also thrown out THANK GOD)) but I fully respect anyone that does. If you identify with it, go for it. You're transsexual then, you made it :D
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
A really stupid question?
You and a few others have mentioned certain terms being thrown out. Not trying to challenge you or the others, but just who decides what terms have been thrown out? Personally I still use MtF and FtM (or M2F and F2M) as well as the term transsexual as do other people I know. Who decides when a term is discarded or supplanted by another?
I feel this excercise is much like the mice voting to bell the cat. Just who is actually performing the action? I can't help think that we are like children playing at things while the parents (all the various docs of the various branches of mental health) are going to make the real decisions in which we'll have no say. We're one DSM away from having the rug pulled out from under us. Having the 'authority' granted them by society at large we don't have a whole lot of say in things, they'll tell us what we are doing and what we are allowed.
A bit off the subject (but not really), I recently read of a distinguished middle-age black woman that was pulled over by a NYPD officer. She was well-dressed, was driving a nice mid-range Mercedes. She was well-spoken, was polite to the officer, explained that she was a business owner, had all her ID in order but was ultimately taken into custody (why, I don't remember). She continued to plead herself to the precinct officers to let her make her call so she could call somebody to verify what she was telling them and be released. Instead she was booked in and had a psych eval hold placed on her. The examing doctor (I'd like to see his degree!) committed her to Bellevue on a psych hold pending her satisfactory completion of a set of tasks. One of the very first goals set was for her to accept the reality that she was not a businesswoman. She was actually held in Bellevue for ten days before her release. How that was arraigned I don't know.
My point is, we are permitted our independant existence at the sufference of others. Should the reigns of power be picked up by narrow-minded docs, we could all end up like this woman. It wasn't all that long ago that people who admitted being homosexuals could be committed with no recourse. This was still happening into the 70's, when I was already an adult.
So, this plays into all this discussion about terms and meanings, who ultimately decides what words are used and what they mean? I don't know that answer and it quite frankly bothers me a lot! I feel in the back of my mind that people are insufficently paranoid. While we are discussing who bells the cat I sit back and wonder, Who is the cat?
I went outside once. The graphics weren' that great.
Okay
My point is, you can use that term for yourself, just stop using it for the rest of us. It's thrown out because it did not serve it's purpose. MtF and FtM was not inclusive also was extremely cissexist and Transmisogynistic.
The language evolves to better explain who and what we are, I have never liked MtF and FtM so when we finally got newer BETTER terms I jumped on them gladly.
If you use MtF for yourself, that's fine. Just don't use it on anyone else unless they ask for it. Activists come up with better terms to help fight for our rights. People didn't understand the old ones and thought it meant things that are not true. That's why we've come up with better terms that are far more inclusive (FtM and MtF doesn't cover Non-Cis people who don't identify with Transgender or Transgender people who are of the gender binary)
We bare the brunt of the attacks (though there are others who have it worse) so ya'll can have rights. We face the TERFs and the Gender Crits and the Right wingers and all the people who want you to just disappear and die and we counteract their negative media by using the new terms.
TERFs and Rightwingers have completely destroyed the meanings behind the old terms and have twisted them for their agenda, our newer terms however tell them to fuck off so we get our power back.
The answer to who decides which terms are good or bad, is generally the activists who pick and choose the right language so we all can go to the damn bathroom. (Currently in Texas we cant)
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Transgender is in transition
From the weirdo fringe to the mainstream. It's currently in a phase where people are experimenting with a lot of different definitions, nuances and similar. Eventually, when it arrives in the mainstream where it's simply accepted by most people, there will be a small set of names that Joe Sixpack can understand and relate to. That is, necessarily, going to lose a lot of nuances along the way, in the same way that "male" and "female" have a lot of nuances that aren't captured by the binary dichotomy.
I recently attended a Transgender 101 at my church given by a pair of F2M transsexuals from the local Transgender Information Center here in [redacted]. To simplify ruthlessly, their point was that it was about gender identity: there are two gender identities - male and female - and there is a great deal of variation around that concept, including people who are not clearly one or the other.
While they went into the "sex assigned at birth" thing, and I agree that there's a significant problem with simply assigning a sex when it's not obvious, my opinion is that it's a red herring as far as transgender is concerned. Someone who isn't clearly male or female (intersex) has other problems, in addition to being assigned a sex that doesn't match their eventual gender identity.
I'd heard it as
Transgender is what you were born as, transexual is what you become once you start doing something about it. The commonly accepted definitions for the words seem to have changed almost every year for the last decade I've been on the transexual merry go round.
I dislike the term "Transgender"
I feel it groups me with other people who have desires, likes, fetishes, etc... that I find disturbing.
I do not want to be grouped with them!
Call me anything you like, but don't group me with 'those people'.
I am transsexual. I transitioned 20 years ago. I'm finally getting close to being cured and just being a woman.
When people call me 'transgendered' its all I can do to not run screaming from the room. I usually correct them saying no... I'm transsexual. There is a difference.
I'm ashamed a little of how I feel like somehow being Transsexual is better. Its not but it is different as you know.
I'm pretty old and set in my ways. Please don't tread on me.
I just get a crawly feeling when I think of everything transgender includes and I don't want to be with that group.
I appreciate everything the "transgender" group has done to move forward the acceptance of transsexuals but I shudder with disgust at the thought of being painted with the same brush that other people's actions who aren't as acceptable.
I find I'm having difficulty speaking in general terms but I don't want to be flamed into oblivion for my internal beliefs. I never share them with anyone but you...
They are my private hell. So in summary I'm TS and I ROCK! Don't include me in your umbrella.
It may be that I transitioned 20 years before people like Caitlyn came out. I remember then being in another group. "Fucking freaks!!" we were called.
I transitioned in spite of that! Where is my cover of Vogue?
Anyways... I'm violating the 'be friendly rule' so I'll shut up and let you get back to it.
Dayna.
yup
it is a very broad umbrella, so broad it includes every single cisgender woman on the planet, after all, they crossdress when they wear their boyfriend's shirt.
when we put the term out we intended that extremely wide grouping, specifically for the inclusion to help expand awareness of the issues. [and yes, the we is literal, I was involved in the formation of much of the terminology being used today. ]
if it wasn't for the lose definition, we would still be getting called a MALE Transsexual for the m2f and FEMALE transsexual for the f2m.
most of the younger ones will never be on the receiving end of that abusive terminology.
Stupidity is a capital offense. A summary not indictable.
I Dunno
This is strictly my personal opinion, so please don't take this personally. (And excuse my grmmar and spelling mistakes, I'm up at this hour 'cause I've got a killer toothache!)
I'm not sure we have made all that much progress terminology-wise. Very few outsiders understand any of the terms being used, except the derogatory ones. And even then, many people have a garbled understanding of them. I end up having to explain what is meant by the term, which is akin to shoving a steel bar into a fan, everything comes to a screeching halt. I've just been saying "trans" hoping the other person's knowledge of the term is close to what I mean.
For years I've been an advocate of the umbrella coverage, strength in numbers, right? But lately, I've come to secretly believe what Dayna is saying. Some of the people under the umbrella are not helping us in the fight to 'win the hearts and minds' of the cisgendered public. (Not even wild about the term 'cis', but what are we supposed to do?) We have a tough road ahead trying to educate the public that we are not a threat to their families when we get those lovely video clips from some of the bigger Pride parades like Dallas. Heck, I find them disturbing also.
I see problems, but I don't see answers, its a Gordion Knot of problems yet to overcome. If we could but unravel a single rope everything would neatly fall into place, but each problem is interlocked with the next problem, and so on. At this point I think the whole thing was set up by Loki or Coyote the trickster.
I went outside once. The graphics weren' that great.
what's so unfriendly
I wouldn't say you were being unfriendly. Is it wrong to state you opinion or stand on such a sensitive issue. I hope not or then only the popular mass decision is the only thing heard. I for one completely and wholeheartedly agree. Please do not group me under the 'transgender' group think/label. To be so offends and scares me. If this be so then the majority of the world still sees me as a freak. No thank you! I'm just woman with an invisible birth defect which is not overtly seen.
Dahlia
to change or move
To my mind the term transsexual is someone who is born in the wrong body and changes their physical gender to match the inner gender. Transgender seems to be an umbrella term to cover all the rest. If the true definition of being transsexual is to change ones physical sex, then the term fits. To be transgender supposes that the person is changing their gender, which to my mind seems impossible or improbable.
As for the debate of still continuing to be called transsexual after having reached the inner peace of surgeries etc., then yes the trans portion is done. End of story! it's not like there is more transitioning at this point. Journey done, complete and final. The person is now female or male whichever the case may be. I for one will put the baton down. I will be at peace to be called a woman.
Dahlia
If we're talking about terminology....
Could someone please point me to the current dictionary of gender political terms? Male, Female, Intersexed are pretty straightforward. Cisgendered is pretty cut and dry as well. But it's the other terms "Gender queer", "Gender fluid", and others, that I need help with.
Personally, I think the terms were all made up by the liberal intelligentsia to keep old, straight guys (like me) in a state of confusion about what they're really talking about, and swap the meanings around so that no matter which term someone uses, they can swat the offender with their brick filled clutch purse and yell "YOU'RE WRONG!" and get all self-righteously indignant in order to make themselves feel better by putting one over on "the man" . (yes the tongue is planted in cheek on that, mostly) [keep forgetting that arrows don't show up in this field]
To What Purpose
BC is "A friendly place to read, write and discuss Transgender Fiction." Piper must have known she was sticking her head into a lion's mouth and stretching the stated purpose of this site . . . which, by the way, lacks a U.S. comma after write.
I have felt for quite some time that this site has become progressively more anti-crossdressing. I have to thank Piper for starting this discussion as it reveals exactly what I've been feeling and have expressed. Some have told me that I'm too sensitive, yet this thread would suggest I haven't been sensitive enough.
Could we start with agreeing that the term transvestite carries horrible baggage and has long ago been replaced by crossdresser? Calling me a transvestite is akin to calling some of the others on this site he/shes.
Years ago Barney Frank, at the last minute when it appeared LGBT would have Equal Rights, threw the T under the bus in an effort to pass Equal Rights legislation for LGB. He (statedly) did so because "those" people are weird and hurt the cause. His actions set back the TG world at least two decades. Isn't this site is falling into the same trap.
When you state that crossdressers are too weird, because they're fetishers, you should consider whether or not you're a fetisher. Do any of your clothes seem to contain "magical powers"? Mine do, and that includes clothing from both ends of my closet. Fetish has recently seemed to have taken on a sexual tone, when in fact for many a crossdressing fetish is anything but sexual. Do I find comfort in female clothing? It depends on the outfit. Some make me look fat(ter). And, if it is sexual, so what? Is that really something to be used to classify a person?
I find myself agreeing with Angharad. Once you've done everything she has, including correcting the birth gender assignment, You no longer are transgender. At least, not according to my Latin teacher. I also agree with her that we should live and let live. Don't lump me under a term that you describe as weird and expect me to tacitly approve.
If you want to think that there is something "noble" in transitioning, go right ahead. However, grant me the same degree of acceptance. I think there's plenty of "nobleness" in getting up every morning and restricting my lifestyle to something that allows me to set a course that is right for my family, employees, and business associates. They all could have been financially devastated had I transitioned. Did I lack conviction? I could show you tremendous proof that I did not. Was I fearful? I suppose so, but most who know me would tell you that I've attempted many things that the vast majority of people would consider dangerous.
In my personal experience we all make choices and the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual is mostly about PERSONAL decisions, not a fetish -- or a lack of drive. I understand the need for a proper vocabulary, yet every time we build a box we become exclusionary.
My life has been horribly hard because of my transgender nature. Those of you who think a crossdresser is ducking anything are simply wrong and fail to see reality. Those of you who think crossdressers are weird, are to be pitied for your insensitivity and lack of knowledge.
I'm sure that there are those crossdressers who are sexual fetishers who rely on a self image of potential humiliation to fuel their fires. I wrote a story about that http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/fiction/3422/chelsea-drugstore My guess is there are many transsexuals whose decisions on transitioning are based in sexual fantasies.
I prefer to think of crossdressers as portrayed in Dimelza's story Mister https://fictionmania.tv/stories/readtextstory.html?storyID=3... The hero in that story is weird only in his devotion to his family. Dimelza showed us the frustration and nobility of a confirmed crossdresser.
If this site is going to allow people to denigrate crossdressers, perhaps adding a comma is not the only required change needed to its mission statement.
Dimelza left BC because she couldn't stand how she was treated because she was a crossdresser. There may have been other reasons, but that is what she told me a number of times was her prime motivation. I have chosen to stay and continue to write the occasional story that should make a person think. I know my stories are not as popular as some and believe much of that is because my protagonists are often not stridently transsexual. Popularity has never been a prime motivation for me.
I'm not leaving . . . and no matter what you say, I'm not going to believe I'm weird.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Commas and boxes
Have to disagree about the comma before 'and'; I learned to write in newspaper work and the comma before 'and' is only needed in that standard when it prevents misunderstanding. :)
But putting people in boxes and labeling those boxes as creepy or even just less important is nearly always wrong.
For me, transgender is anything about or relating to crossing the gender line. I choose the widest application that makes sense in context because BigCloset is about inclusiveness, not exclusiveness. That's why it's a BIG closet.
I've left the less than friendly responses on this thread up so that people could respond to them. I don't mean to offend anyone but sometimes preventing controversy is NOT the most friendly thing to do. Letting people carp a little can be productive when they can be told in a respectful and civil way that they aren't being empathetic and that their efforts to protect what they see as their turf is full of ironic exclusionary vibes.
On the other hand, feeling picked on kind of goes with the turf of being part of a minority; the perception can often be there when the reality is that the whole of humanity is made up of minorities, all of whom are more or less oppressed. Just listen to some ultra-rich people whine when it comes time to pay their taxes. :)
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
You aren't weird
If you're a crossdresser, there is nothing wrong witht hat. There are Trans people who are crossdressers. Crossdresser's who are not Trans however are Gender non-conforming Cisgender males (or cisgender females) if you are AMAB and you are not trans but instead a Crossdresser. That is fine, you just aren't trans. You don't suffer the way we do, but we are not telling you to stop being yourself. You should totally be yourself, and totally push for that.
Note: Crossdresser does not equal a Trans person who doesn't get surgery or hormones. If you are a Trans woman, you're a woman period. I don't care if you have a full beard and a rose in your mouth, you are a woman. It doesn't matter if you don't shave your face, don't take hormones, and don't get surgery. If you are female, then you are female.
For instance myself. I was born female, but AMAB (assigned male at birth) I had a rough time growing up but I'm still female. I'm a woman with a penis, it's not that big of a deal.
Also if you wish to identify with Crossdresser even as a Trans woman, that also is okay as it is your place to decide.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I've been thinking about the same subject
my take is that the problem is that as a subculture that is relating to the main culture, we are very new. As a group, we have very little experiance trying to explain ourselves to others, so we're struggling to find words that work.
I suspect we'll end up each having to make our own language to describe how we feel, and hope we can translate that language to others.
all bigender
I like to think that we are all bigender, in that we all have parts on both sides of the imaginary pink-blue line. And it makes us all more human.
Except
There are people who aren't pink or blue.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Terminology...
http://www.kgw.com/story/news/local/2015/06/07/local-transge...
Did you hear one of her friends and her, nearly miss it with the gender word? To me being called a guy, him, his or what ever is the worst cut of all.
Labels
Humans seem to have a problem with dealing with continuous data points, so try to map them to as few discrete data points as possible. Not only is this true for common "weights and measures" (e.g. length, capacity, weight, temperature) but also for less tangible concepts such as the gender spectrum (which, as with a colour spectrum, has multiple axes covering self-identity, biological factors [e.g. karyotype, genotype, phenotype, biochemistry] and social factors [e.g. hair / clothing / grooming preferences, preferred activities / interests, behaviour / mannerisms] and quite probably other factors that don't fit neatly into the above categories).
It doesn't help when, in an attempt to provide a classification term for every permutation, you end up with an entire dictionary's worth of terminology - most of which doesn't have rigid definitions that everyone can agree on.
As we've seen above, there are multiple alternative definitions of "transgender" and "transsexual", although what most can agree on is that TG covers a wider group of people than TS. Who exactly qualifies is another matter entirely - both on the fronts of other people a person regards as being in the category and whether the person themselves feels they fit in the category.
Things get even more complicated with those who (at present) have no inclination to permanently move out of one gender category (even if they won the proverbial lottery), as motivation frequently gets used to categorise them. It's likely there's a whole range of motivations among those crossdressing in private, public and for performance art.
Heck, even among the performance artists you can subdivide them into those aiming for a realistic portrayal of the feminine, those aiming for parody, and those who are harder to discern (e.g. the clean-shaven Tom Neuwirth, aka the bearded Conchita Wurst), while among the private / public crowd you've got those who feel a need to do so, those aiming for escapism, those who see it as a form of role play, those who see it as an experiment, those who find it easier to think X-rated thoughts while wearing the attire, and even those who are excited by the prospect of portraying a parody of feminine subservience (with a proportion of those excited by the prospect of being "discovered" and humilated as a result - or at least, a sizeable proportion of FM content would indicate...)
Then if that wasn't enough to wrap your head around classifying, there's an entire glossary's worth of terminology covering "non binary" genders - those who view themselves as neither entirely male nor entirely female - or even somewhere outside the male - female spectrum.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
The 'Labels' Trap
I think Mittfh has it right.
And if we are not careful we will start tearing ourselves apart arguing over nuance and boxes. Heck, the radical feminist movement have turned that into an art form so let's avoid that pit of vipers ('the tearing ourselves apart, not the rad fems' she says as she ducks and looks over her shoulder quickly :)).
There is a spectrum.
We are all people.
Our differences make us interesting.
So how about a new definition?
'BCTSists'? - People how write, read, share and comment on great stories, and other thoughts and issues we think others might find interesting in a friendly environment?
(although of course we could have a bun fight about the relative worth of authors versus commenters, bloggers, donors and those who click on the kudos links?)
:)
Persephone
Non sum qualis eram
I'll go with human being -
There is a huge range of conditions within the 'trans' spectrum, I know because I've experienced, suffered, endured and enjoyed a fair few of them in my sixty-nine years. Consequently, I tend to go with Persephone's view, we're all human while also accepting that 'trans' means 'cross' and that prefix satisfactorily covers the 'T' in LGBT. I find the pedantry of constantly trying to redefine the aforementioned 'T' to be odious and tedious.
I'll toss a couple more angles in to the mess.
Is a physically male person who feels female but does not feel the need to have surgery simply a "Transvestite" if they dress the part. What about those who identify in between of some sort, what does how they dress mean or effect how they are labeled?
Recently I have come across two different definition for pansexual on stresses attraction to "Any & All" genders, the other stresses attraction to individuals gender being irrelevant. Seems all such definition seem to work that way, depends on who you talk to. It's a wonder we mange to communicate at all.
Part of the problem is that it is really all shades of grey, not boxes with distinct edges. In using labels we make boxes.
>i< ..:::
PS. Phunny how sumtimes wun thin will remind ya of anotha! {link}
;))
No
Non-op Trans woman. Surgery doesn't matter at all. Society and Cissexism tell us we need surgery and hormones. Some Trans people need them, not all do.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
terminology phobic
I dislike labeling people, mainly because someone out there will use that label to do or say something hateful. We are all male or female. For some of us that definition changes as we go through life, and that should be good enough of a definition. Life is full of changes, that's how we grow.
Waterdog
From an activist
Transgender encompasses those who are a gender outside of Cisgender who prefer the term Transgender.
I've yet to find a all encompassing term for all Non-Cisgender people.
However I am absolutely in love with AMAB (assigned male at birth) and AFAB (assigned female at birth) it is beautiful because it is encompassing of all genders (or lack thereof) because it gives us back our power and takes it away from society.
MtF and FtM have been thrown out. Not only were they damn insulting, but they were not inclusive of non-gender binary people or intersex, genderfluid, agender, other non cisgender people. You can still use it for yourself, but do not use it for someone else unless they ask you to. Especially if you are cisgender.
A crossdresser/tr*nsvestite/Drag queens/ect are not Transgender, because they are not a gender but a Cisgender person who is gender nonconforming.
Hence Gender non-conforming Cis-men and Gender Non-conforming Cis-women. Easy to use and doesn't alienate their group.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Where Is the Line?
I agree with much that you say. Thank you for the education. But I have three questions.
1.) You say that Crossdressers don't suffer the same way as trans people. I would agree that's true, but in the context of your statement I think you're talking about a degree of suffering. A crossdresser could easily suffer more than a trans person in that there is no goal and for most the image in the mirror is rarely satisfying. Guilt and shame are palpable and hard to measure.
2.) You seem to draw a hard line between a crossdresser and and a trans person. Really? Can you really tell the difference that clearly? If so, please tell me how because I and many others cannot. I try . . . I really, really try and have been trying for seven decades. In a few years I'll go in a box, more than likely an urn, but until then I'm pretty sure I'll never fit into one of those neat boxes you have described.
3.) There are many, many more things about you and me that are similar than there are that are different? Why the emphasis on a difference that I can't even define?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
It's pretty simple
A Crossdresser is Cis, a Trans person is Trans. Huge difference. Cisgender men have no clue about the oppression women face, especially trans women. I'm not talking about guilt or shame, I'm talking about the fact Trans women have targets on their back, especially Trans women of color. We get murdered sweetie, just for existing. We aren't able to use the bathroom in certain states without being arrested, and in some places they want to pass a law where you can be "rewarded" with a cash prize everytime you find a trans person in the "wrong bathroom." There is even legislation in California about a bill that allows Californian's to murder any LGBT that they find. The bill has not passed and I pray to God it doesn't because I know a lot of Trans people who live there.
So no, it's not the same.
It isn't about how someone "looks" I don't care about that. It's about who someone is. Men can be feminine, women can be masculine, and that's not what defines a person. You might like the same clothing style as me, and be a Cabbit therian but you'll still be a Cis man and I a Trans woman. That's not a bad thing, it's just a different axis of oppression and privilege. Understand?
Also note: Cis people can be murdered for being different,(IE: Black people) but it is not the same kind of hate crime that a Trans woman will face. (And Black Trans women will face that kind of racism and more) It is all horrible though and it needs to Fucking stop.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
"It's Not the Same Kind of Hate Crime"
Sorry -- I was understanding and acknowledging your point of view until you pulled the "My group's more hated than all the others" line on us. Sorry, but there's hardly an oppressed group in history that hasn't said the same -- justifiably or not.
As you said, it's all horrible. But drawing that particular distinction strikes me as neither productive nor accurate. Your contention -- which seems true enough -- is that trans as you define it isn't a choice. Race, caste and ancestry aren't choices either -- and it's often the oppressors who get to define the terms.
Eric
Also:
Suffering less does not invalidate another persons suffering or point of view. Nor does the lack of need to have the surgery invalidate the woman inside, or that others need it make it less legit being CIS nonconforming. It is what is in the mind and soul that counts, and that all points along the spectrum are valid. Keep in mind "It's not a contest".
~Hypatia >i<
Cisgender men have no clue about the oppression women face
You might want to use a smaller tar brush when talking about men, using large blanket statements like that. As a police officer, I've been on my share of domestic/battered wife calls, taken statements from female rape victims, and worse. Ask any EMT, fire fighter, or police officer and you will see just how much empathy there is among the men, and just how much of a CLUE we actually have about what women in our society take from asshat boyfriends, girlfriends, parents, siblings and strangers alike.
Or are you of the Berkley Women's Studies Program mindset that all men are rapists, that marriage is slavery, and male babies should be drowned at birth?