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It has occurred to me lately that there is a lot of variety of opinion on the objectives and duties of a proof reader.
Being of a somewhat older school (I won't say which or how old), I tend to rely on my recollections of what I learned in school and a specific 'Manual of Style' that I would consult more often if I could remember which box it's packed in.
I tend to concentrate on the spelling, grammar and construction and usually will only comment on a character or situation if asked by the author. I try to be careful to make sure that the story is faithful to the author's vision. (Compare the two versions of Grover's Strange Happenings in Ragnarok County.)
It seems from my reading others' comments that there is a lot of variation in the scope of proofing.
Is there an interest in opening a forum for proof readers to discuss the more mundane aspects of writing such as grammar, construction, etc.?
Are there others interested in affiliating themselves with the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders?
Oh, you don't have to be blonde or evil... ;-) ...but it helps.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Happy
Since my story "Strange Happenings in Ragnorak County" was mentioned I would like to say that I am very happy with Janet's work. Since she looks with entirely different eyes than she spots inconsistencies that I completely miss. If there are unsung heroes here in the community it has to be the Guide of Evil Blond Proofreaders. Authors get thanks from the comments on their stories, but for the Guide it's just another re-write and edit. I know this is somewhat off tropic but I encourage those whose time and efforts improves the posts here at BCTS 99 Shoes and though out the community to resond to the Mistress, "She must be ......"
hugs
grover
The scope of beta-reading
I've done beta-reading for fanfic writers. (Regrettably, Real Life dictates that I no longer have the time -- I steal time just to write.)
How far you go depends a lot on the author: do they appreciate having OOC (out-of-character) behavior (and, in fanfiction, canon violations) flagged? Weak plot points pointed out? Exposition tidied? Dialog audited? With corrections suggested? If not, whether you can constrain yourself to grooming the story's spelling, grammar, punctuation and occasional vocabulary determines whether you're a good beta-match for that author. If that's all the revision you want to offer, and the author wants a more active beta, then, again, it's not a good match.
Good author/beta work almost feels like a collaboration, with author and beta tossing partial revisions at each other, conspiring to lift the story by its bootstraps. It's time-consuming work but it's fun.
If you're looking for shared experience and methods, you might try looking beyond the TG community, into the various fanfic communities. The Harry Potter canon has a very active fanfic following. Fiction Alley is a four-part archive that's fully beta'd, meaning that nothing is posted until it's been past a beta-reader; you might find helpful information there. Another possibility is http://www.perfectimagination.co.uk - the Perfect Imagination beta listing for HP fanfic.
hth
-k
Do I qualify?
I asked Karen when she first posted using the guild tag, and she referred me to you.
I'm a strawberry-blonde. If evil can be defined as "twisted," I think I qualify there too -- you can even ask John in Wauwatosa about a suggestion I gave him. I've proofed/edited for quite a few authors, but have now restricted myself to a select group who I have found that I can work comfortably with: JulieO, Itinerant, Bob Arnold, Scott Ramsey, JanS, and Ricky over at FM.
I agree with Kiai that it helps a lot to develop a rapport with an author, and that the level of interaction may need to vary. Grammar, spelling (homophones!!!), punctuation, and phrasing are just the beginning essentials. Consistency, fact checking, emphasis, spotting plot gaps, and making suggestions for plot and/or characters are elements that need to be worked out with each author. (I also do menu planning for JulieO.) For some authors, I only see their completed stories, for others we work together from fairly early in the writing process, making it more truly a collaborative endeavor.
I've also tried to do some posts on some writing "basics" for the general audience here. There were posts on correct use of the apostrophe and the semi-colon over at the original Big Closet, which seem to have disappeared. More recently, I've been making a list of homophone errors, which may turn into a post at some point.
Anyway, I'd love to join your guild. ;-)
Amelia
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
Proofreading, copy editing and editing
All three are different:
Proofreading is checking for format, spelling and punctuation errors, with maybe some grammar and consistency checks.
Copy Editing is the above plus more extensive grammar checks, readability, sense and some style and contruction issues.
Editing is the above with suggestions for additions, deletions, rewrites and any other changes that might be made to improve the work. Editors don't do intense proofing since that will be done later.
I have worked professionally as a proofreader and have done copyediting since high school. Editing I trade with friends. :)
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Of course you do!!!
My dear, as far as I'm concerned, you most certainly do qualify!
Itinerant
(Apprentice Wannabe Editor)
Nicole (a.k.a. Itinerant)
--
Veni, Vidi, Velcro:
I came, I saw, I stuck around.
So You're an AWE? Awe, that's so cute!
I have suggested to Janet -- since *I* coined the *evil blonde proofreader* part in honor of my sister, she is naturally blonde and evil -- given that Amelia_R is not a pure blonde, perhaps a higher membership fee is required. Janet and Karen_J took the concept to Guild status, bless their evil blonde hearts.
I will admit to Amelia being fully qualifed in the EVIL department. A suggestion given to me about Joanie's familar was serious EVIL. and will get used, eventually.
* * * *
As to proofer/copyeditor/editor, I needed one or more of those BADLY when I started posting back in Christmas 2005. Cathy_T gave me some good inital advice, then I got several nice emails from Amelia who -- in a desparate attempt to save civization as we know it -- sent me a list of words I commomly confused and sevaeal outher tips. Um several other tips -- WHERE'S MY PROOFREADER?
Itinerant -- Amelia's apprentice and victim -- wears all three hats at times. He does a lot of beta reading and pointing out of little plot oopses.
"John, about Joanie walking around in all that snow in the Sahara in July?"
Janet has been more concerned with my reposts but has also done top-notch beta/copyeditor duties particulaly with my recent contest entries. I have gotten great beta help from Karen_J and Holly Logan has filled in wonderfully on several occasions, more in the proofer end of things.
I still get feedback from my *legion* of readers-- all three of them counting me, myself, and I -- but they no longer need suffer as my betas.
A second set of eyes is critical to taking something from an idea to something others can enjoy without having to be mindreaders.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Evil ... but in a good way!
I would have to agree with Itinerant, you are certainly qualified! After all, strawberry-blondes can mingle with both the blonde and redhead factions - a dangerous combination. And, of course, redheads are inherently evil...
Scott
Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of--but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards.
Lazarus Long - Robert A. Heinlein's 'Time Enough for Love'
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
... truth and consequences
> And, of course, redheads are inherently evil...
A tall, slender redhead steps up behind Scott, tapping him on a shoulder as she says "Ahem! My name is Nicole Harrison, and I'd like to have a *word* with you ..."
Nicole (a.k.a. Itinerant)
--
Veni, Vidi, Velcro:
I came, I saw, I stuck around.
Chick Fight!!!
A tall, buxom blonde steps between Scott and Nicole. She sizes the redhead up, smiles sweetly and says, "Hiya, I'm Brandi! Scott's a doofus honey, but he's *MY* doofus. Let's just play nice now ... 'kay?"
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
Easy there!
Let's all take it easy now. Both of you, Itinerant and Scott, *will* be edited!
Muahahaha!!! ;-)
Amelia, Member of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
Pout!
But Mom!
Awww
We were just playing!
Strawberry blonde???
My granddaughter is a strawberry blonde and she can pretty much get what she wants from me.
Welcome to the Guild. Initiation and dues information will be sent shortly. ;-)
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Thank you, Janet!
Amelia
Proud member of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
Janet, how could you? --sniffle --
Nice to see you posting, Janet.
I hope that means all is well with you visit to the quack house, horse pistol ... hospital?
But you let those wayward girls off the hook too easy. I insist on a proper and dignified settlement of their dispute -- a fight in a large children's pool filled with vanila pudding. If you do, Janet, I'll send my Joanie over with a tampoline and a bikini.
John in Wauwatosa, horny adolecent boy emeritus.
P.S. Ah, please, Janet, let Nicole and Bradi wrestle, pretty please!
P.P.S. My muse is being very naught and I have two chunks of Timeout and two entries for the Oddfellow's Day contest underway.
John in Wauwatosa
Almost back to speed...
Yes, John, I am home from the International House of Pain and am healing as well as can be expected.
Unfortunately, two days later I came down with a stomach virus and have been all kinds of miserable.
I think that our energies should be spent on our authors, not each other. ;-) That's part of the evil.
In terms of membership, I am open to all regardless of hair color. I have found that blonde is not a color so much as a state of mind. I do draw the line at needing to be evil, though. One can not be a good proofer without some edge and devotion to the craft.
As to wrestling in vanilla (spelling, John, spelling... *shakes head sadly*) pudding, at some point a shower seems to be in order. For you, maybe it should be now, and VERY COLD!
Though, I wouldn't mind meeting Joanie. I like her style.
I am hopeful that I can get back into the proofing harness soon. I know that I am holding up a couple of chapters and I don't want to garner the ire of our adoring fans.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Maturity as a Writer
I think the type of proofing for a story depends heavily upon the writers and their maturity as a writer, which is different than the maturity of a writer. I believe that any author can be assisted by proof-reading as defined by Erin, but I am not sure that every author is ready for the assistance defined in the last two categories.
For example, I do not think I am confident enough to have much questioning done of my works. It could very easily lead to a paralysis-like writer's block. Maybe when I am more comfortable at implementing an idea as a complete story I would be more able to benefit from editing, not just proofing. Even if the stories themselves would benefit at this time.
Well, in my less than humble
Well, in my less than humble opion, this is a case of a semantic failing.
Wow, that was so patronizing! Lemme try this again: there's a difference between pre-readers and proofreaders. Many authors want or need both.
A proofreader proofreads, comments on content presentation, and looks for technical issues in the writing. Makes sense right? This is the more traditional service, to which I assume Miss Janet adheres, and given a little modern spin (editors are no longer dictators, they now rule with a kind and iron grin (yes grin)). They do not comment on the content itself.
A pre-reader (aka beta-reader in the more fanfiction arenas) doesn't care about technicalities. They're all about the story, how it's presented, to they like the characters. It's a far more personal and subjective concern.
Personally, I think a good editor does both. Such a person applies their keen knowledge of language to achieve a nice solution (ooh I got both meanings!). At the same time, the editor thinks about presentation and experience, and comments upon it, leaving such final decisions in the hands of the author and Creator.
And just as a note, despite being blond myself, my hair is as dark as my wit and twisted as my mind.
Gildi Yfel Proba Raedan
My Response:
http://stardustr.us/gildi
IMMORTAL
- JOHN 3:16 (KJV) BIBLE
Well, We are just tired...
Of the evil blondes getting all the attention. Everyone thinks the blondes do all the editing around here. Well it just ain’t so. You are all put on notice that the Closeted Union of Brunette Editors wants their due. Half the work claimed by the so called “Evil Blondes†is done by CUBEs - who are just shy and stay in the background while the letting the blondes get the credit. Well that ends now!
We demand satisfaction. And if you won’t give it to us then we’ll just have to turn on our vibr…
Oh never mind.
That's why the blondes win
They don't give up and quit part way through.
ms
Sacrifices
The TGoEBP don't require blood sacrifices from the author's themselves, do they?
Love,
Paula
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
The Coda
Chapterhouse: Dune
Paula
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires. Seek discipline and find your liberty.
The Coda
Chapterhouse: Dune
Sacrifice
Not more than a pint at a time. ^_^
Seriously, if an author puts their heart in their work, that is more than enough.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.