Sex-Linked Anatomical Influences On Locomotion (Why We Walk Different!)

Printer-friendly version

Sex-Linked Anatomical Influences On Locomotion

or, Why Men And Women Walk Different

That men and women walk differently has been the subject of much amusement in popular culture. But, from watching how men and women interact on the streets in cities, it's also apparent that something as simple as walking is likely part of the mating ritual, whether by sending signals in consciously or unconsciously displaying ourselves, or in appreciating the assets on display. As such, it's fair to assume that there are large amounts of peer pressure and social conformity at work.

Anyone who's read my first posted non-fiction story, the one of my first public outing "dressed," will remember the comedy I encountered in my own body, suddenly unable to walk on the sidewalk in heels, despite the fact that I was able to spend hours in my own home moving easily around. My "muscle memory" kicked in, sending me lurching around like a broken robot. It was kind of a wake-up call that got me to thinking about the differences in how men and women walk.

This is not a learned essay on the sociology, anthropology or psychology of any of that. Sorry.

Men who write transgender fiction, and seek to explain the differences, often fixate on breast size and balance, as if that explained everything. I don't think it does.

As a crossdresser, who has aspirations of being able to sneak around in public from time to time ("passing" seems an over-ambitious label), I've been giving thought both to the nature of movement, and to muscular development.

There's some overlap between men's and women's body proportions. A woman with a long torso and narrow hips, and a man with narrow shoulders are not unheard of, although both outside the "ideals" of beauty that we set for the sexes in our culture.

Women with small breasts do not walk any more "masculine" than other women in general. Men with gynecomastia do not walk any more "feminine" than other men. In fact, in both cases, stereotypical behavior may be enhanced.

Trained dancers, whether ballet or modern dance, move gracefully and fluidly, even when they're off the stage, with much less difference between men and women than nondancers display.

So, what is at work here? Why do the "feminine walk" and the "masculine walk" exist, and what do I feel are the major influences at work in creating these? More importantly, how could this help anyone in their efforts at crossdressing in public?

Speaking of robots (I did mention it briefly up top), as anyone can testify who has seen early efforts at creating humanoid robots that walk, making natural-looking locomotion must be a very difficult technical problem to solve. It's certainly confounded many teams of engineers who have tried. In the last year or so, I've seen one or two results that looked a lot better, so progress is being made, but I still don't think they're there yet.

So, what is it that we humans use to walk around? Our legs, right? We have joints at our knees, ankles, and hips, right? That's how we walk? No. That's only part of it. There's your foot, with hinged toes, especially the ball of your foot, but with additional minor flexibility. And then, there's your pelvic girdle. In effect, I believe the pelvis has the musculature and flexibility to act like two additional joints for each leg. Your pelvis can be pivoted around the axis of your spine, additionally extending each hip forward and back. In addition to that, it can rock side to side at the same time in an up-and-down fashion, extending the effective length of each leg alternately. Your hip is a ball joint for a reason, so it can work in conjunction with your pelvis being in relative motion at the same time.

I think dancers move with less sexual differentiation because they've been trained to develop and use all their muscles and joints. The rest of us, not so much.

Even including women with large breasts, it's men who tend to have more total upper-body mass than women, in relation to total body mass. With broader shoulders and much heavier arms, most men help maintain their balance by swinging their shoulders and/or arms when they walk, using the upper part of their spines as they do. To some extent, this comes naturally, as we all use the muscles we find easiest to use. We're essentially lazy, and like to do things that are easy. But, it also makes some sense, because if you have to carry around a lot of muscle mass, you might as well use some of that strength and mass to balance, or you'll fatigue something else.

Women have less upper body mass, especially in musculature, so this option is not available to them. To maintain balance, they have to depend more on their largest muscle groups, the ones about their hips and thighs. Where breasts do come into play in this is a desire to prevent bouncing, which is both uncomfortable, and socially unacceptable. Displaying excessively bouncing breasts in public is generally considered ungenteel. The woman in question would at least get made fun of by her peers. So, the refined, genteel woman develops a walk that allows her to hold her upper body relatively still. She does this by using the motion and flexibility available in the pelvic girdle more so than a man would.

There's one other ratio that comes into play here. Foot size to pelvic width. Men have longer feet, on average, than a woman of the same height. They also have narrower pelvises. If we all need a certain amount of space in our hinged walking apparatus between our joints to be able to walk smoothly, it's clear that men have an advantage in their feet over women. In addition, stereotypical women's footware, the high-heeled pump, further shortens that portion of the limb (the effective ankle-to-toe length), and limits the available range of motion of not only the ball of the foot, but the ankle as well. This puts more of a burden on the pelvic girdle to take up the slack and smooth out the motion.

It's been clear to me for some time that the "padding" on a fit young woman's derriere is not predominantly fat. It's muscle. Yes, there may be a subcutaneous layer of fat there, but it's not the major factor in providing the basic shape that we women's-derriere-watchers enjoy! Or, that we crossdressers don't want to be immediately spotted as lacking.

Between wanting to be able to walk around without being immediately spotted as male due to my locomotion, and wanting to add a bit of muscle to my gluteus maximus and environs, I've been looking for a training method to help. After the last few days, I think I'm onto something.

The hardest part of this has been "finding" the muscles to work on. Transferring part of the responsibility for locomotion from one set of muscles and joints to another is not as simple as it sounds. Especially, when where you want to transfer them to hasn't been used in that way before! If you're going to try to follow what I'm doing and duplicate it yourself, let me apologize in advance if you feel frustrated in the effort. It took me a while. Stick with it, trying every few days for a few weeks until you start feeling the muscles.

For me, my exercise equipment is an urban sidewalk that goes up a 5+% grade for almost half a mile, the last couple hundred yards of which are steeper. Maybe you have access to a treadmill. The pitch of the hill requires more effort to walk up, so you're more likely to be able to feel and isolate the muscles involved, as well as give them more exercise.

The goal is to hold your head and upper body completely steady, without bouncing, while your legs and hips do all the work. In particular, you want to feel the pull of the muscles down your lower back and buttocks, as you put them into play. I find it easiest to hold my hands clenched over my stomach, with my elbows tight at my sides. It took a while to find it, but once I did, I could feel the fatigue in those muscles almost immediately. Once you have that, you're all set. Just keep annoying the tired muscles! If you want to grow them, give them a day or two off after each workout. You want to encourage them to build up, not tear them down.

Oh, and try not to use the muscles in your feet and ankles as much as you would normally. Let your upper legs pull you through. It's amazing how quickly those "new" muscles will tire at first.

A word of warning. Go easy on this, especially if you have any history of back or disk troubles. Don't try increasing your range of motion too quickly, and do try to distinguish between healthy muscle fatigue and joint pains or muscle spasms. Don't overdo anything and try not to injure yourself. If you've done any "core-strengthening" exercises in the past for a weak or injured back, and you're still aware of those muscles, by all means exercise them at the same time as you work on your walk. Those muscles in front counteract and balance the muscles in back, and strengthening them together is probably good in general, not just for those of us who want to walk in a more gender-neutral way. This isn't meant to be physical therapy advice, and if you have a physician, trainer or physical therapist, please consult them before trying anything.

If anyone has had success working on either their walk or their derriere's natural appearance, and has any recommendations, please leave them as public comments so everyone can benefit from them! For the purpose of this posting, could we please omit any mention of padded panties and/or female hormones? I'm not opposed to either for anyone who's interested, but that's not what this posting is about.

up
33 users have voted.
If you liked this post, you can leave a comment and/or a kudos! Click the "Thumbs Up!" button above to leave a Kudos

Comments

Cycling

Angharad's picture

is also supposed to expand your bum. Which isn't the reason I do it.

Angharad

Angharad

Different Muscles?

I've cycled a bit, too. These seem to be different muscles, higher up on the derriere than the ones that pump the thighs, at least judging from the slight strain I'm feeling.

found this

kristina l s's picture

a few weeks back but haven't had a chance to really look and see if I think it would do as it says.. but hey, there has to be stuff like this out there that's legit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmIS4WOAhoU A little exercise routine to help... It's Titled Body Feminisation for Transexuals but assuming it's valid would apply to any slightly male-ish bod.

Kristina

Walking

A major factor in the different walking styles for men and women is the differences their pelvises. There is a significant difference in the orientation of the hip socket, which effects how we walk. For example see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelvis. This results in a natural tendency of women to rotate their pelvis about vertical axis (spinal direction) while they walk. If you are trying for gender neutral or for gender specific walks, this should be considered.

I Wonder...

I wonder which follows which? Do women's pelvises develop differently because of how they are walking while the pelvis is still growing (which presumably is happening through much of the teen years), or do they walk differently because of how the pelvis would develop regardless?

Walking

The pelvis is structurally different for men and women. It has perhaps the most different bone structure between the sexes. Upright walking is highly dependent on its structure. For men it is optimized for walking and running. For women there is a compromise to allow child birth. This lead to the difference.

This doesn't mean individuals can't vary from the norm, or imitate other walking styles.

Possibly Both !

Primarily, the female pelvic girdle is broader than the male one, to allow for easier passage of a child during birthing, so the anatomical differences between male and female bottoms is preprogrammed and develops during puberty. However, in our society we find people (men AND women) not walking so much anymore because of having cars, busses, trains, planes and anyway more sedentary occupations. And modern N American and European women actually have narrower pelvic girdles than for example African women, who for the most part still have to walk a lot, not having all these modern travel modes available to them. Obstetricians report that giving birth is harder and takes on average longer, in Eurpoean women, than among African women because of the European's less pronounced broad female pelvis. (Another reason for this is because poorer nutrition among African women causes the babies' heads to be smaller at birth than European babies' heads.) You can see the difference in bodyshape between African and European women quite clearly. African womens' bottoms are further accentuated by a layer of fat, because if well fed they store fat there preferentially.

Old photographs reveal that the differences in male and female bottoms have become less noticeable in the last 100 years or so. Also, in as late as Victorian times there were marked differences in both anatomy and amount of walking done between wealthy and working class women in N American and European cultures. Both nutrition and life style accounted for this.

I have not found any medical or scientific publications that discuss this subject, but from the above observations it strongly suggests to me that both inborn and exercise factors are involved in making the differences between how men and women walk and the sizes of their bottoms. Also, in our modern cultures the anatomical differences between men and women with regards to their pelvic girdles and walking styles are becoming less pronounced than earlier. Males today are less "male" than they used to be in the middle ages, and females are less "female".

The Y chromosome has been getting smaller, since the stone age as far as we can tell, and is scheduled to eventually vanish! ( in a few thousand years !)

Shoes also change the way both males and females walk. Wearing shoes one puts the heel down first ( which is very bad as the spine receives the full shock, which explains why so many people have back troubles!) and with high heels this will be more pronounced, as well as the steps being shorter because more care with balance is required. Wearing tight skirts also reduces the length of steps and so changes the walk. Going barefoot, both men and women put the ball of the foot down first, which is far better for the spine as it is then protected from the impact. Very soft flat shoes like the N American Indian Moccasins were, approach the effect of walking barefoot and are probably the healthiest footware to have been invented. Chiropodists who have to treat mostly womens' malformed feet after being ruined by unsuitable shoes for years, urge young women to wear sensible shoes or none at all!

I found Pippa's question and the original article most interesting and original posts. Most intriguing and thought-stimulating.

Thanks to you both.

Briar

Briar

Y Chromosome Disappearing?!

Does this mean we'll soon be progressing to ONE gender?! ^_^

Woo! Everyone will be having fun!

I also believe the walks are

I also believe the walks are a little different because of how the leg bones, especially the large one, sit in a natural female and a natural male. I watched a "The Learning Channel" program recently regarding this exact issue.
As a rule, women have a hip degree outward slant of 15 degrees, (the wide pelvis) while generally men have 10 degrees or less, (the narrow or straight pelvis).
This is why women are more inclined to receive more serious hip, pelvic, knee, and ankle injuries than men, while playing certain sports such as basketball or others that require a fast stop and turn, while running. Their bones are already "out there" which causes quicker and more rapid problems. Jan

Race Walking

I felt that I had an advantage when learning a more fem walk, because I had learned race or speed walking, just as a different way to get my aerobic exercise. I had also read a book on speed walking that stated that going at a given speed, like 12 min. miles, one burns something like 1/2 again more calories if one is walking than if one is jogging. I had been damaging my right knee by running hard off and on for about 6 yrs. That knee is now osteoarthritic. Walking didn't hurt my knee as much for the same intensity work-out because one is supposed to always have at least one foot on the ground at any time. Running, I believe, is a series of leaps and hard heel strikes. There is also something in race walking about not bending ones knee on the leg on the ground until that leg has passed behind that hip. I don't think that matters.

I think what was most important was the power and length of stride one gets is, in a large part, from hip rotation. One is supposed to rotate the striding leg's hip as far forward as possible, then after foot contact, rotate that hip as far back as possible while the opposite hip goes forward. Moving the whole pelvis side to side is discouraged because it doesn't help forward motion. Arms are bent at 90° at the elbows and are swung back and forth to counterbalance the pelvic rotation, however ones hands are not supposed to cross an imaginary vertical/front to back plane running down the center of ones torso. Ones head is supposed to be held upright and steady.

Perhaps it was just the practice and muscle development of pushing my hips forward and back with smoothness, keeping at least the center of my spine from rotating, that helped me with my fem walk.

Another thing; my main Tgal mentor always told everyone, "start your step by leading with your hip"

Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee

Ready for work, 1992. Renee_3.jpg

Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee

Now you've done it

I am going to be going to bed with the song 'Locomotion' in my head !

I have a bit of an in-between pelvis. I am wider than average, bone wise, but the angle is still more boyish :(. As a consequence, I have shape even though I am very lean and I fit very well in Junior miss rather than woman's. My walk is also kind of in between also though I've seem women with very men-like walks. As a matter of fact, a woman in the building I work in walks in a very typical stalking type of walk like that of men and I did a double take as I am sensitive to that kind of thing, hmmmmm?

Point is, it can vary and it is best for all of us to play up our strengths and downplay any weaknesses in the passing game.

Kim

Walking

I don't think it's so much that women walk differently than men, as it is that men walk differently than women. Think of it as the "John Wayne" strut (as my martial arts teacher likes to call it). In effect, it's shifting your balance onto whichever foot is stepping forward, generally while it's still in the air. It has little (if anything) to do with hip size, pelvis shape, or any of the more common sex-based explanations, and much more to do with balance (or lack thereof), and a more fluid walking motion.

Simply put, to walk fluidly, you keep your balance on one foot and slide/glide the other one forward, until you reach where you want to step, then you put your weight on that foot (bearing in mind that you keep your foot as close to the ground as you can) and bring the other one forward in the same manner. It may not be a truly feminine walk, but it's a lot closer than the way men typically walk.

If I don't walk right, don't tell me.

A few of you met me in Atlanta this year, so you know how I move. I keep workig on it and some days I just walk like a steel worker. Mostly however, I am satisfied with myself. At least a low heel helps, and mine are Dock Martins with about a 2" heel. I can't wear them a lot because the ball of my foot gets sore.

I've had so many serious back injuries that I am not that flexible. I have noticed that many women walk with their hips, and when I have tried it, well, it helps a lot. Making it a habit is arder, and since I crushed L4-L5, I don't really want to work that area very hard. One problem is I think that due to the fact that girls have a baby oven, and a proportionately wider pelvis, some of the muscles are attached in other places than a man's. Remember, they have to make room for baby.

I think that some women have trained themselves to have genuinely spectacular hip action, and I sometimes wonder if that is not part of the causation of the chronic back pain that many women complain of.

Khadijah

my thoughts

My understanding is that there are 3 reasons why male and female walking characteristics are different.

The first is fairly straight forward; the pelvis. the fact that the female pelvis is normally more open and tilted means the leg motion is different.

The second is the spine. Females have typically narrower waistlines and their floating ribs are in a different position. The resulting muscular development means that the body torsion has more sway in females.

Lastly, are the relative dimensions of the thigh vs calf.

All three contribute to the relative walking characteristics.

Scientific American

...had an article on this very subject many years ago. Unfortunately, it was from before they started their digital archive in 1993. I don't know which issue it was in.

As I recall, it had a lot to do with the shape of the pelvis and the angle of the joints. It was a long time ago, though, so I could be remembering incorrectly.

OH! MY! GOD!

I have never had to consciously or unconsciously figure out how to walk as a woman because it just came natural to me. Of course my pelvic girdle has always been wider than normal for a male, and maybe that is why I walk with a slight wiggle to my derrier. Whatever the reason, I have never had to worry about it. Also when I don't have a few pounds to lose I have a natural figure that is noticeably female. I found this personal research very entertaining, and during some points quite comical. I don't slouch my shoulders either when I am sitting or walking, but then my whole world has been female too. Crossdressers I understand only dress as women from time to time, and then revert back to being a male after they take off the female clothes. That also has a lot to do with your mannerisms, walking included. You can't dress as a female and expect to act as a female, if you are constantly reverting back to your male self. You can't get into the necessary frame of mind.

Being female is not a game as crossdressers seem to treat it. Being a woman is a discipline, an attitude, a 24/7/365 identity that you just don't don one moment and cast aside another.

My whole life I have worn dresses, skirts, skorts when they became popular, full and half slips, panties of all different styles and colors, and bras when I was old enough. But never have I ever had to worry about my walk or other mannerisms because they just come natural to me, and that is saying something for someone who was born with a dumb male body.

Anyway thank you Pippa for sharing this very entertaining story.

"With confidence and forbearance, we will have the strength to move forward."

Love & hugs,
Barbara

"If I have to be this girl in me, Then I have the right to be."

"With confidence and forbearance, we will have the strength to move forward."

Love & hugs,
Barbara

"If I have to be this girl in me, Then I have the right to be."

"If I have to be this girl in me, Then I have the right to be"

...but nobody else does?

Barbara, I feel the need to respond to a few of the things you said, not because I think your opinions are not valuable, but because I don't think you're considering all the facts in the model that you've based them on.

For starters, I suggest you take a look at The Seven Scales Of Sexuality. Gender Identity is only one part of a very complex model that shows a truer range of human sexual identity and behavior than a single scale can.

Any model which is going to be any use for representing the full gender and sexuality range would have to take in everyone. This includes very effeminate-acting, very male-appearing gay men, and very butch-acting, very feminine-appearing lesbian women as well as all flavors of dominants, submissives, so-called vanillas, and gender-queers. Not all of these are people with gender identity problems or trans presentations. They're just part of the range of human sexuality. Your model is extraordinarily limited, and can barely represent vanilla men and women.

As for the concept that "crossdressers are playing a game," I would bring your attention to the fact that everyone plays multiple roles in their lives. A woman can be an employee, a homemaker, a mother, a gym rat and half a dozen other things, easily. The woman who wears a cocktail dress to a morning teacher's conference is going to be perceived as playing the wrong role. Ditto the woman who wears her ballet practice togs to the office. These are not expressions of gender identity, but they are different presentations.

The typical straight, male crossdresser expresses his feminine side with a female presentation. This is not his total identity, but it is a part of who he is. To deny this as "a game" is a bit on the intolerant side, don't you think? Aesthetic is no more linked to Birth Gender or Gender Identity than Social Conduct or Dom/Sub is. That's what makes a crossdresser. It's also what makes a tomboy.

And, as for the walking, as others have noted, and which I alluded to in my references to trained dancers, there's something supremely artificial in the stereotypical butch male walk. One of the things I've noticed in seeking to "find my missing muscles" is that kicking those muscles into use makes it much easier to walk up the hill. It not only gives me more motive power, I find myself getting less winded. At no point did I reference wanting to have an exaggerated wiggle. It's about fluidity, balance, and grace; about appearing more genteel. Certainly, when it comes to wearing high heels in public, I don't think this is negotiable -- it's a necessity unless you want to draw a LOT of the wrong kind of attention to yourself. If you haven't trained yourself to walk smoothly and gracefully in heels, it's going to be very noticeable. I will shamefully admit to having chuckled at young women, unused to heels, stumbling around awkwardly.

Thank you for your comments. I hope this response has been useful. It really is a shame when we find one part of the Trans community unable to understand or accept another part. We all need all the tolerance we can get, and charity, as they say, begins at home.

___________________
If a picture is worth 1000 words, this is at least part of my story.

The Balance must be served.

That Crossdressing feeds into them, their balance. THAT is not a game.

Pippa as for those 7 degrees I don't completely disagree however I do think more often than not what creates Homosexuality effects the gender identity gene as WELL as the sexual orientation gene. In my opinion I believe there are more Draq Queen's than Crossdressers in terms of percentage. I would argue that aspect is VERY mild however.

A little add on

You know, I guess in some very real way I kinda lucked out. Longer legs than are proportionally normal, a halfway between pelvic formation and a lifetime of learning how to do really stupid things with my body. So I wind up really quite flexible and I was always told I walked like a girl.

Where my problem comes in is having tried to not walk that way most of my early life. I find that if I can relax and let that self training go, I am very much more comfortable in the way I move. Apparently, the way I naturally move is viewed as being very female. I don't see it. I mean yeah, my hips pivot more and yes, I do sway a bit, but its not because of trying to do it, its because of just relaxing and allowing my body to move the way it wants to.

I think a lot of that is the fact that I rarely wear shoes. Just due to working at home and the freedom that provides, I'd say I rarely wear shoes more than 5 hours a week. Most of the shoe wearing time is spent pedaling a bike. As a result of that(and btw that refers to childhood as well, only wore shoes when I had to.) my natural gait means I put the balls of my feet down first.

You can almost always tell a martial artist or a dancer just by the way they walk and position themselves. The problem I keep running into is this subconscious bit with doing the heel down first John Wayne walk. I spent way too many years trying to walk like a guy. You know, that is actually physically a bit painful, at least if you keep it up for any length of time.

I think the real problem for me is that I have 2 lifetimes of opposing training going on. One says to imitate the tough men and the way they walk(I never could really manage that). The other says to just let my movements dictate their own logic. It appears that(for me, anyway) the true secret is simply to move in ways that are natural for me. I honestly don't care whether anyone thinks my walk is masculine or feminine, it is what it is. I will walk in way that is comfortable to me. My good luck that comfort and a female walk go hand in hand for me.

Um, piece of advice here. If you want to fit into narrow shoes, especially heels, don't go around barefoot. The bones in the foot splay somewhat due to weight distribution. It helps with the walk, but the fitting into the shoes, not so much.

Battery.jpg

Something that helped me learn a more femme walk,

was reminding myself not to overdo it. No one walks like a stripper...except strippers, and nobody really walks like John Wayne. If you can stay somewhere in the middle and don't TRY, just relax, it helps you have a much more femme stride and walk.

There's no way, save for some very serious and very expensive surgeries, for a male to approximate accurately a woman's walk, without practice, practice, practice. Muscle memory is real, and if you work at it, it becomes second nature.

Pippa gave excellent advice about not overdoing anything like the exercises she described.

So the biggest things...in my humble opinion are: Don't overdo it. Let it flow...and RELAX! Men tend to be very tense when they walk. Women have a much more relaxed way of moving... Keep those elbows in and try not to move the shoulders so much... again, RELAX.

And the biggest thing? Don't worry about it too much. I've seen women who walk very much like men. It isn't their walk that makes them feminine... it's the total picture. You can be in the middle of the scales, walk-wise, and still be perceived as female if the rest of you is what people fix on. If they see long hair, nicely done, makeup, even a modicum of it, jewelry, especially earrings... in other words, the normal accouterments of a female, they think "female."

I think the biggest mistake M to Fs make, is trying too hard. Mind your business, smile, RELAX, and enjoy just being.

Hugs and love,
Catherine Linda Michel

As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script. Y_0.jpg

hmm

Guess trying to walk around with a copy of webster balanced on top of my head was a waste of time. oh well by to reading how to again.. sighs scthea

Walking

Pippa,

I've always found placing one foot directly in front of the other works well. Pretend you're on a balance beam instead of the typical male walk that would require two balance beams 6-10 inches apart.

Maybe it's just me, but it's always worked. Had a hip x-ray recently and my hips are abnormally wide for a man, (thank you LORD!), got me called swivel hips in elementary school and Oh MY kids can be mean.

Hugs,
Beth

Interesting that there are a number of wider than average hips

... among the BCers in this thread and as I mentioned in my previous post, including me. I have the stretch marks on my hips to prove it too. Very unmale, I suspect. It seems to me the brief estrogen spurt all boys experience before their testosterone surge was enough to do that to me.

As a consequence, men's jeans never fit me as it was always a bit loose in the waist when it fit the hips. I always had to wear a belt to keep my pants up, unless I did not mind the slightly low-waisted look.

I don't have a full-length mirror myself but on a recent trip overseas, my hotel room had one and I could see that despite not very well padded hips ( well virtually none, truth be told) I still have a decent, if junior miss, figure. Now if only I can move weight there like the snow plows are moving snow around in my area.

Kim

You got, I got, we got hips!

All this is a very interesting discussion about things I have always wondered about. Like you, I wore women's service pants and shirts from the mid eighty's until I transitioned in '05. No one ever questioned me, and the pants did fit much better. Though I don't think I had actual breasts at the time, somehow the eased women's shirts fit me much better. I'd gotten them from JC Penny.

Just piecing together bits of this discussion, the attached articles, my own research and what Dr Kamol in Thailand said, it appears that I do not have an Arnold Schwartznegger's skeletal type. They say that there are 4 skeletal types but now I am wondering if all of them are grouped together along a continuum?

I had a great deal of back trouble when about 10-12; to the point that the attending Doc told my parents that if he ever saw me again for the problem, he was contacting the state, and pressing charges for child abuse. This was about '57 or so and in those days, things did not get reported unless they were really significant. One of the comments the Doc made to me was that I had far too much Lordosis, and he gave me excercises to reduce that. So, as all T folk like to do, I wonder if my pelvis was tilted at a more feminine angle at the time?

It is all very interesting, and feeds my fantasies nicely. Still, in many ways my body was very male. I had a very nice for a male, um schlong, and was hairy to the point that they called it Hirsuisisim, though my voice was always quite high. Ain't evolution fun!

Khadijah Gwen