California Gay Marriage law AIN'T NO MO !

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There are so many things that I do not get about the whole gay/lesbian thing, but I know it is a personal choice and should remain so.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/07/us-usa-gaymarriage...

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No choice

Being gay or lesbian is no more a "choice" than being "trans".


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Yes, and I am none of the three.

Ya know, I'm all for rights for everyone. It does not mean that I have to get everyone else's stuff. I do think it is bullshit that this whole social dialogue is occuring. People should lead their lives and not screw with others.

Even when I was T, I did my level best to simply be a normal woman, cleaning house, cooking meals, admiring nice clothes in the store windows, wishing I could see my children and grands, feeling camaraderie with other women and all that other stuff.

I did spend my share of time being a weepy sodding tranny martyr, and know how hard it is to make that change in life.

Now, I so want people to be nice to each other, the people of faith to be consistent with their stated beliefs, and the people of non faith to like just get on with life. There is just too much bitching and moaning. I want people to get along.

If I was God, you'd all be getting a switching.

G

Oh my. We are making interesting comments today.

People of Non faith...

A self styled 'video Journalist' I ran into on YouTube complained
about the fact that Atheists are becoming much more vocal of late.
She ascribed it to the fact that Dr. Hawking said that there really
was no god, and sort of went off about it.

I wrote:

Ms. XXX:

No atheist I have ever met was in any way moved or motivated by Dr. Hawkins’s
interview, Ms Resident. His was merely a simple restatement of that which we by
definition agree. Atheist's activities result from the push by fundamentalists,
and because of the danger in religion's fatal and inhumane flaws; in that, it’s
only practical uses are slaughter, anesthetization, and to foment, compound,
and justify ignorance. All for one reason, and one alone. They are the prerequisites
for religion.

The Kansas City Board of Education. Lawsuits attempting to force poorly conceived
and useless myths in to the science classroom. A population so ignorant and under-educated,
that it is not only incapable of dealing with the dire problems that face us, but it
actually seeks to stop those who can.

It's aggressive fundamentalism that's on the rise, Ma'am. Keep them in Church if you
can. I'll gladly go back to work.

Even a video journalist, should have asked someone first.

XXX

Honest to god, Gwen. I can keep my mouth shut most of the time, because I believe
that faith is the most wonderful thing people can do. It comes from the very same thing
that makes our human intellect so powerful, which is the ability to look at a copse of
trees, and wonder and project what might lie beyond them. It allows us to wonder what
is beyond a hill, and believe in what we might find there. We can read fiction, even
improbably fictions, and still be able to put ourselves right in the middle of an endless
selection of stories. It's wonderful.

This same virtue, however, does mean that we are a little more credulous than perhaps we
should be. That's not a bad trait, but it does have the downside of getting us into trouble.

For 18 centuries, many established churches/faiths killed, in the most horrible ways they
could devise, anyone who happened to disagree with the faith du jour. Many still do. For
the century following that, they sued and legislated in every venue they could control, to
stunt, silence, or eliminate any moral or intellectual precept they happened to disagree with.
For the last thirty or so, they've gotten their asses handed to them for it.

Here is why. Not only do we now have a population so ignorant and under educated that they
can not tell the difference between ancient mythology, and the seminal biologic principles of
the last couple of centuries, but they don't even know the difference. Not only that, they
are not only incapable of understanding the very real and dire problems that the human race
faces, they are actually trying to prevent those few who do have a hope of solving them from
doing so. If it were not for that, I'd silently go back to my lab, and back to work, a very
happy human, but it would require these people go back to their churches, and wherever they
want except a science class room,

I know you are a person of faith, Gwen. I find it to be variable in ways that I'm not
qualified to understand, but I could not love or respect you more. But... you are batting
a thousand today. Please don't say things like that. It's just wrong in the same ways
that you feel bad about when someone treats you like less than human, when you know you've
done nothing to deserve it. And, when over two-hundred laws and ordinances have been proposed
by the faithful seeking to ban the teaching of reality, and/or substitute religion, and
the faithful then claim that they are being unfairly treated, I'm not going to be able to
remain silent.

Love,

Sarah Lynn

Sarah, please forgive me?

I've been pretty stupid this morning in ways that I can not explain. I am very sorry.

I was from that group of evangelicals that "got their asses handed to them", but was always accused of being soft on their pet issues. I certainly never ever thought that I would have one of those problems myself and when I did, they turned on me like rabid dogs.

So, if I have offended anyone else, please forgive me. I did not intend to. If this is not enough, I will meet you out back of the woodshed and hand you the switch to beat my ass.

Gwendolyn

Forgive you? Absolutely.

I'm not mad at you Gwen. Nothing to forgive. I just feel the need to point
something out that I feel quite deeply about. I believe in reason and people,
which means that since I make more mistakes than most, that one of you people will
correct my reason (or try anyway ;) ) when I step over a line.

I was genuinely sorry about what those women did at your Mosque, Gwen. I like
your analogy about rabid dogs, and wish I could have said that myself; but, I
agree that their lack of empathy and humanity allowed them to treat you as no
human being should be, and when I heard about it, I hurt for you too.

Please don't ask for Forgiveness. We Atheists just hope we survive our
failed experiments, and to learn something valuable from the experience.

Love always,
Sarah Lynn

honestly...

When I first read her spiel, I was wondering what even set it off, then I realized, you used "people of non-faith" as being synonymous with atheists. And it's not the same thing at all.

In fact, it takes a special kind of faith to hold rigidly to atheism despite some evidence that it COULD be possible, and absolutely NO evidence that it ISN'T.

The only "ism" that could maybe possibly be accused of being a "people of non-faith" would be the agnostics, and even many of them have their own brand of faith in certain things...

Honestly, I'm not sure it's possible to be a functional human being and not have faith in SOMETHING. Since, by definition, anything you don't have direct and in-depth knowledge of has to be taken on faith:

Faith:
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
(other purely religious definitions left out intentionally, since all are originally derived from one of these two)

Origin:
1200–50; Middle English feith < Anglo-French fed, Old French feid, feit < Latin fidem, accusative of fidēs trust, akin to fīdere to trust.

Abigail Drew.

I have faith in doubt

erin's picture

It's the universal force that makes it possible for things to be improved.

If there were no doubt, it would be necessary to invent it. Doubt is a light in the darkness, a sword against ignorance and a support to the intellect. Doubt is the fount of wisdom because doubt leads to knowledge and knowledge to wisdom.

There are three axes to the universe of intellect, the known, the unknown and the unknowable; doubt is the compass that makes these distinguishable.

Doubt begets Curiosity which becomes Discovery, the parent of Knowledge that matures into Wisdom that fosters Righteousness. Doubt makes it possible, necessary and desirable to discern Truth from Error.

Doubt is a feast of learning that satisfies with hunger for more knowledge.

Doubt is the creed of scurrying life, the Code of Rikki Tikki Tavi: Go and Find Out.

Doubt is the essential trait of intelligence; does a cockroach have doubt? How would we test that? If it does, what would that prove? If it doesn't, why does it bother to scurry?

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Abby

'People of Non-faith' is synonymous with people not understanding what People are, Atheist or otherwise.
I have great and abiding Faith. I believe, and I know, that Faith is a wonderful characteristic that
almost all people share. I believe my family loves me. I believe my Wife is faithful. I believe in
the goodness of most people. I believe it's better to treat even those who won't appreciate it as well
as you can, and I believe that I will never give up on my determined efforts to be honest, understanding
and trustworthy.

I have an overwhelming reverence for the mystery, and the complexity of the universe. There are pieces
of music, that can reach into my being, not just my consciousness - but my being, and take hold of me
from the inside. My empathy for people, and many other living things is constantly expanding; and, my
senses of the innate beauty that I see in so many things both natural and man-made leave me speechless - nay
breathless every single day.

It does not matter that I'm an Atheist, or an Agnostic, or a devout theist.

I reason. I will not use faith as an excuse for ignorance, and nor will I stand idly by as it is used
as a substitute for answers I or others should still be looking for.

I am Moral. Not because I believe, that as one would train a performing animal, that it's the adherence
of inscribed code or some ultimate pain. I am not trained, I am Moral. Morals may only exist for man, and they
may defy any definition such as Ultimate or Inviolable; they clearly make no sense in the universe at large, and
can be as changeable as are the societies of man: But, I am of man. I am moral, and unlike some who honestly
believe that people can't be moral unless threatened with punishment, I can not be threatened sufficiently to
be immoral. Because I know right from wrong. I know.

I'm a natural philosopher. Not by training, or vocation, nor any sense of accolade or honorific, but because
I innately am. I wonder at everything, and I want to know why. I'll start out watching TV, but all to rapidly
degenerate in crawling through books, and web-pages, or scrolls. My mind is my playground, and I believe that
if I just try hard enough, that most things will become clear to me; and, that if I can just be clear enough that
I can explain them to others who might ask. I'm lucky, because I'm gifted, and most of the things that are of
interest to me, give up their reasoning easily, almost all... except for the reason why there are some people who
don't want to know.

But, I can be easily offended. I don't like it when someone wants to take credit for something I've done. I
take umbrage when someone tells me I can't be a good person, without their guidance. How dare they. I resent when
people lie, or try to tell me that they have all the answers, or that their answers are better than mine, when they
clearly don't begin to understand the question. I'm furious, that people take the faith that all people have, and
use it against us, either as a minister or a politician, and I'm hardest on myself, when I feel I've been too lazy
or corroborate, obdurate or ill informed, that I leave myself open to unwarranted credulity, because that is a fault
of mine alone.

It's not a question, Abby, of Faith or non-faith when you are talking to Atheists or Agnostics. It's not even a
definition of what Faith is. It's the same for all of us. It's just that I use my faith for something other than
you do. And neither my faith, nor my reason, nor my morals have any intersection of the least commonality with
theology.

Recently, I tried to explain a subtle point to an atheist who had said something pointless and rude on a public
blog. He said that scientists and science had no interest in god, because God flatly does not exist. He was not
so nice, but I've rephrased. I explained, quietly, that science does not deny, God. It is simply an incompatible
methodology. Science can only deal with the physical universe, the observable, the testable, or in other words
the empirical. If someone wants to define something else, as being outside of the whole and not subject to the
physical laws of the universe, then okay, but it is not a subject for science. I further when on, that he
consider, that if someone ever comes up with any event or phenomenon, attributable to god or otherwise, that is
reproducible and/or observable, and seems to violate the natural laws as we understand them, that myself and all
of my atheistic scientist friends will be there to study it the very next day.

We may even publish a paper.

You see, I do understand the differences between belief and proof, in all their wonderful subtitles

That night, I got a short note from him It said: "Please, go fuck yourself."

I don't think he understood either... but at least he said please.

Nite all.

Choice

According to Hermann Cain it is! Now, whatever happened to him?

I think you may have gotten that backwards.

This is the only article I have read, but I think you got it backwards, at least in part. The 9th District Court of Appeals (U.S. court not California Court) ruling will allow gay marriages to resume in two weeks, barring an appeal to the Supreme Court. The appeal is likely, and during the appeal the marriages may still be prohibited. No matter what i is a victory.

RAMI

RAMI

Don't celebrate too hard yet. A final decision may be years off.

Prop 8 backers have made it very clear they will appeal within the 2 weeks allowed, just not how.

There is one more possible step before the Supreme Court. Prop 8's backers can appeal to an 11 judge panels as their next step. This decision was a 2-1 decision by a 3 judge panel.

Some of Prop 8's backers are thinking let's got the the Supreme Court now, while others want to go the intermediates step to have another chance at victory on the way the the Supreme court AND if not, to draw things out even longer.

Also keep in mind, whether or not they should win at the next level if they go that route, it is always possible for the Supreme Court to decide not to hear the case, giving the last judgment the decision.

I've been listening to KCBS news radio in San Francisco ( online, of course), and they have interviewed a number of 'experts' with various ides on where this will go next, and why, but this comment captures the meat of what I've heard.ideas on what

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Holly

Gwen... Homosexuality a choice?

It's probably not a choice of any kind, other than the fact that there are probably
very many people walking around with these feelings to one degree or another, but who
pursue lives that don't really include homosexual relationships. This is why when someone
says something really stupid, like "All transgenderd people are just gay people with other
problems," you can get really annoyed at the foolishness of that conclusion, and then if
you are like me, loose a week of sleep looking shit up.

I know that progress is slow in regards to making the biochemical and genealogical studies
to answer these questions, but apparently, they don't let you experiment on people, even if
the science is really good and interesting! Go figure.

But what we do know is this.

In the seventies, several doctors in Europe, including a couple of pathologists came up
with a conclusion that made people on the conservative theological (The gay is a just a
choice side.) the galloping trots. They said that with no other information about the
person on their table, they could look at their brain, and have an approximately eighty ]
percent chance of telling if they were gay.

Crazy, right?

Well, here is where that leads, and why there is not already a genetic test for gaydom,
gayness, or gay-i-tude.

Humans are one of the most flexible and adaptable species we've ever seen with the possible
exception of some birds and bacteria. All the things that had us tied up for so long,
Mongoloid people being less intelligent, Negroid people who just are not as good... you get
the drift. Point is, that we are all, on a genetic basis, virtually equal in every way that
we can measure. The differences that confused the curious and the ignorant alike for so
many centuries, are due to the fact humans, Family Hominidae, Genus Homo, H. Sapiens Sapiens,
are able to generate such variation. If you take your average Aboriginal Australians say,
and transport them to Luelea Sweeden, and if they survive, you get ABBA in a few hundreds of
generations. I mean really Fast.

Now this is simply Variation within one race, within one species. That's why we don't use
Race anymore, because we are all one Race in the anthropological sense, or in a taxonomic
sense, one species.

This is probably one of the major reasons why we survived, and so many of our brother Hominids
died out, as it probably kept us alive long enough for our more developed brains to do some
good.

Now. This is also why we probably won't see a genetic test, as many of the gender issues,
and indeed sexuality may be hormone related, hormones we are all carrying around with us, but
it is that adaptability that makes us what we are.

What we do know is as follows. When a female has a male child, that first male child has a
good chance of being heterosexual, and passing along the genes of the mother and father as a
first imperative. With each succeeding male child, there seems to be an approximately thirty-
percent chance increase for each male child, that that male will be homosexual. Now, you get
down to number three or four, and the odds clearly favor, he never had a choice.

People who understand natal development, seem to think that this is due to the mother's body,
because of the presence of the little alien male in her system, a male whose testosterone level
reaches its highest level in his life at about 13-20 weeks, is attacked by the mother's system.
I'm not sure if it's her hormonal system, and or her immune system, but an immune system response
would be easier to track down in a few years, because it would leave antibodies behind, that will
be identified eventually. What they agree on, however, is that the mothers body becomes better
at this, and more reactive and more effective at 'feminizing' the little male.

Now, no one with a brain bigger than a pea thinks that if this is a viable mechanism for explaining
at least some people's sexual identity, that it is the only way it could happen. Obviously once this
kind of mechanism is in place, all sorts of things could go in that direction. Suffice it to
say, it is a very, very, interesting statistic... with statistics being the first step to many
of our biochemical and medical models.

I don't know why Lesbians occurred, other than there are some pretty interesting evolutionary ideas
that would make a successful mother, one with a lot of viable offspring, find several other female
progeny around her to help, who did not go off and start breeding like mad a soon as they hit puberty,
a reasonably useful thing. Just like not having a bunch of alpha males, who would immediately start
killing each other. You don't want't to stop having children, but having them not killing each other
off as fast as you can make 'em is an even better idea.

Now, as for that first report that everyone really scoffed at?

Turns out that in males, the right hemisphere of the Brain is usually about 8-12 cc larger. Unless
you are a homosexual male, and then they tend to be exactly the same size. In Females, the average
heterosexual female will usually have the same size hemispheres in her brain. Pretty close, at least.
In those who are identify as lesbian, the brain which is usually a little smaller than in adult males,
is about 5-6 cc's larger on the right side.

We may not know what's going one, and they won't let you dissect people, but with the better medical
tools, like High Resolution MRI's, chemical tags and markers, and the ability to trace biological
compounds down to very small levels, we will see some interesting stuff in the next... say ten years.
What we have found out for sure, and what does not seem to be popular in the media for some strange
reason, is what the above tells us. Being an asymmetric brained, or Feng shui brained, is certainly
not a choice. There may be biologically gay people who behave heterosexually, as there may be biologically
heterosexual people who are really gay. We are very adaptable, and gender/sexuality is very complex.
But even if 'choice'is a little part of the equation, it's not the most important.

It's hard to look a lot of the developmental stuff up. It seems that every Obstetrician who ever
got a grant tried to do a study on hormones vs fetal gender/development, so you have to be pretty
specific in your searches. In the next ten years or so, provided Fox news doesn't take over all media,
someone will finally do it for us.

Sorry guys... Couldn't let that one pass. Not here

Sarah Lynn

Whoa! It's not a choice.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that the whole GBLT thing is a choice! Any reasonably scientific person knows that it is all genetic and in a way that very few of us are starting to keen to. It is not and never was a moral decision.

I am sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

I did say that I do not get it, but that is not important. I'm not God am I?

Gwendolyn

Don't be sorry, Gwen.

We are family here. One of the things that I love about this place is,
that if I screw up, one of you will be there to catch me!!!

[Did I say that out loud.]

Much Peace,Gwen, and love added too for good measure.

Sarah.

The American dream?

Isn't 'freedom for all' kinda best exemplified by personal freedom and choice? Like, fer instance, choice in who you marry?
I simply *can't* understand the opposition to gay marriage!

Because...

My magic book says so, and it has more mojo than your magic book, and if you don't have a magic book, then you should know your place.Mr Zappa had a song about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWh8OMgR1Bo

As he pointed out (with reference to TV evangelists) there's a hell of a differnec between kneeling down and bending over.

All the magic books

tell you to 'love thy neighbour'; they don't tell you to kill them if they happen to read a different magic book, and they don't tell you to ignore them.

Hey Ho. And you wonder why many are disallusioned?

I have a friend who doesn't have a magic book, but a 'better person' you would struggle to find.

Susie

Susan.

That's because morals are inside people. The only place the appear in those
magic books, is where they tell you they are - in the table on contents. I'm glad
that your book does not have the Kill'em all parts, but I'm also sorry you apparently
lost the first thousand pages or so of your book. I hate it when that happens to
one of mine. Math is so hard when you've missed the first few hundred pages...

8-_-8

SLM

Magic books?

I keep thinking Harry Potter... and the moral always seems to be: Protagonist Good, Antagonist Evil.
But then the author wrote it that way, din't she?
;-)

Propagation

Any new upstart religion, as with any new business, has to do two things to survive (regardless of the founder's intentions):

a) find a niche in the market
b) market itself as better than the competition
c) advertise itself

In the case of organised religion, (a) usually boils down to unique rites and rituals, while (b) usually translates as "If you don't follow our rites and rituals, when you die you'll spend eternity burning in the fiery pits of hell!", and (c) usually translates as evangelisation.

As far as I can recall from my reading of the translated accounts of a certain first century preacher's life (which probably combine some reality with a hefty dose of the religious equivalent of poetic license), he didn't intend to create a new religion, rather lead a "back to basics" campaign for his existing one, whereby the original message of "be nice to each other and don't worship physical objects" had been lost among centuries worth of religious leaders trying to put their own stamp on the faith, dissecting the rules and regulations, and producing precise definitions of what did and did not count (still followed by some Orthodox Jews nowadays who regard operating electronic devices as "work", which is about as daft as claiming idly pulling the head off the top of cereal stalks is also "work", which got the first century preacher into trouble). The accounts we have suggest he disliked preaching on the street, people boasting about their piousness or otherwise loudly proclaiming their faith - rather keep faith as a private matter, and only mention it if people notice the good deeds followers were doing and asked them about it.

Of course, that doesn't sit well with the need to propagate the message, so a couple of thousand years later we find the religion created in the preacher's name in a similar state to his faith was in when he tried to reform it. It also appears as though that faith isn't the only one in a similar situation, as evidenced by the most vocal proponents of another faith in another part of the world. One frequent oddity is that the proponents of conservative religious messages apparently appear to believe that the various "be nice to each other" clauses don't apply to those who don't agree with them - and some of them seem to believe that the "don't kill" rule applies to some (fertilised ova) but not others (almost anyone who stands in the way of a soldier engaged in an overseas operation).


As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!

Two democratic appointed

Two democratic appointed judges denied the ban, the republican appointee voted to support the ban. Right down the stupid party lines of the Political Parties. Justice in the courts? Nope, just politics as usual.

I am not gay, lesbian or bisexual, but I cannot tolerate the stupiditiy of the split in our political parties which ruins any chance of living life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness or developing cohesive policies that allow for that. Instead, you can do that if you support the right political parties. I heard of that before, lets see, yeah, the old Soviet Union. That was it.

CaroL

CaroL

In the same vein,

When (not if, as there is too much unsettled law for it not to happen) it gets to the Supreme Court, it will be a standard 5-4 ruling, the 4 Republican appointees voting no, the 4 Democrat appointees yes, and Kennedy being the swing vote.

There's nothing untouched by political stupidity these days.

Sort of my point.

Sarah has written reams on religion, and I mostly agree (except we are actually Hss not HSS :-)). What I see is that there is no real difference between the religious naysaying she comments on, and the political split highlighted by BG27. Sod reality, I have an 'ism'.

It's very true.

I just picked one point, but I actually spent a whole weekend conversing with a fellow named Alexandros
Stefanidis from Athens Greece last weekend. He honestly believes, that the reason why Greece had so many
billions of surplus euros in their retirement fund in 2000, and the reason why the EU is about to cut them
loose now, as the newest Island in the Aegean, is that when America took them over during WWII, the
Democrats and Republicans began running everything in their own political interests, and they took the money.

I'm not kidding. I mean when he threw a baseless video rant at me, to educate me on the many things I did
not know about america, I explained how Noam Chomsky's arguments failed from the standpoint of circular logic
and the fact that according to him, every action or inaction america may or may not take is morally reprehensible,
so his conclusion that we are bad to the bone, is really not supported by his flawed logical tautologies. Nor
his one sided histories or his lack of recognition that in the real world, there are no perfect solutions. That only
took me about four pages, and at the end of it, Alexandros said that he thinks I'm the nicest american he's ever
spoken to. I almost hated to tell him, that there are a lot of people here just like me. Just about everyone in
fact.

I haven't even begun to figure out the democrat and republican thing, and I'm not the most impartial judge.
I'm not sure how far fetched the reasoning for the Republican VS Democrat thing goes, because I know they must
be doing something when they not screwing us over in their efforts to prove their side was right all along...
but it certainly goes down a rabbit hole or two.

Also, funny last weekend. An American High School Exchange Student over in Germany, got cornered by her
class and teacher about the American Military. (This is 11th grade mind you.) They wanted to know why America
starts so many wars. I helped her with her paper, truthfully pointing out the one war we unequivocally started,
The American Civil war, but that one was only one page... but we did cite over a hundred references.

Ignorance is the new world currency, folks. Spend Freely. It's our job.

Sarah Lynn